W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-aria@w3.org > February 2016

Re: Why is aria-expanded invalid with a checkbox?

From: James Nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 10:24:28 -0800
To: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>, Richard Schwerdtfeger <richschwer@gmail.com>
Cc: Stefan Schnabel <stefan.schnabel@sap.com>, Birkir Gunnarsson <birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com>, "public-aria@w3.org" <public-aria@w3.org>
Message-ID: <56B245DC.8070105@oracle.com>
Unless you are warned in advance that it is going to happen IMO this is 
a WCAG failure under 3.2.2

Regards,
James

On 2/3/2016 10:22 AM, Bryan Garaventa wrote:
>
> That sounds fine for a custom design.
>
> I do wish to point out that the checkbox triggers dialog is a common 
> paradigm that has been around for many years however
>
> https://www.google.com/search?site=&source=hp&q=checkbox+that+opens+dialog&oq=checkbox+that+opens+dialog&gs_l=hp.3..33i21l2.3206.11374.0.11736.33.30.2.1.1.0.198.3257.9j21.30.0....0...1c.1.64.hp..0.23.2607.0.rr7M8kdIOdY
>
> So it would be nice if we could all agree on a specific design pattern 
> for dealing with this.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:richschwer@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2016 9:59 AM
> To: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
> Cc: Stefan Schnabel <stefan.schnabel@sap.com>; Birkir Gunnarsson 
> <birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com>; James Nurthen 
> <james.nurthen@oracle.com>; public-aria@w3.org
> Subject: Re: Why is aria-expanded invalid with a checkbox?
>
> I see. So that can be done in a number of ways:
>
> - A live region with an aria-describedby that points to it from the 
> control. Content would be triggered upon focus change. ( I like this 
> as it can be changed and the user is guaranteed to be notified)
>
> - A confirmation popup when a form is submitted. There may be multiple 
> form elements that require a notification to the user.
>
> Rich
>
> > On Feb 3, 2016, at 11:28 AM, Bryan Garaventa 
> <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com 
> <mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > I understand this in most cases, and if the group decides this is 
> the best way to go, that's fine with me.
>
> >
>
> > However I do need to explain the situation, because the circumstance 
> I'm referring to was more unique, in that the client is a financial 
> institution that was sued because it did not adiquatly convey to 
> non-sighted screen reader users that the checking of a particular 
> checkbox would significantly impact there accounts, even though this 
> was conveyed visually using CSS for sighted users.
>
> >
>
> > So the legal design requirements were then mandated that it must 
> convey that something else was going to happen when this checkbox was 
> checked.
>
> >
>
> > As I said, if the group decides this association is not important, 
> I'll refer them to this thread in the future to explain why.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:richschwer@gmail.com]
>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2016 9:06 AM
>
> > To: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com 
> <mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>>
>
> > Cc: Stefan Schnabel <stefan.schnabel@sap.com 
> <mailto:stefan.schnabel@sap.com>>; Birkir Gunnarsson
>
> > <birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com <mailto:birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com>>; 
> James Nurthen
>
> > <james.nurthen@oracle.com <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>>; 
> public-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-aria@w3.org>
>
> > Subject: Re: Why is aria-expanded invalid with a checkbox?
>
> >
>
> > In this case even the sighted user does not know that is what is 
> going to happen. This is just a confirmation. There is no reason to 
> have to indicate that it has a popup.
>
> >
>
> > So, what happens:
>
> >
>
> > a dialog gets generated
>
> > an AT gets notified that a dialog was generated Focus moves to the 
> dialog box. The AT reads the dialog and the description if coded right.
>
> >
>
> > This is far different from a drop down menu where you have a button 
> with a drop down that you need to operate to make a choice. The user 
> will have a visual indication that the button has a dropdown (like a 
> visible down arrow). That is not the case with a confirmation dialog.
>
> >
>
> > … sorry, no reason to have a popup on that.
>
> >
>
> > Rich
>
> >
>
> >> On Feb 3, 2016, at 10:46 AM, Bryan Garaventa 
> <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com 
> <mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>> wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >> A devil's advocate question, what happens if you have a checkbox 
> that when checked, opens a confirmation dialog?
>
> >>
>
> >> This is a real world example, for a legal requirement of a client, 
> where checking the checkbox involved important ramifications that 
> needed to be conveyed to the user.
>
> >>
>
> >> Technically the two actions are separate, the checking of the 
> checkbox, which is either true or false, and the expantion of a 
> content layer that must be associated to convey the importance of 
> understanding this action.
>
> >>
>
> >> How should these be linked? The use of aria-controls is not 
> reliable, aria-owns is not valid.
>
> >>
>
> >> -----Original Message-----
>
> >> From: Rich Schwerdtfeger [mailto:richschwer@gmail.com]
>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2016 4:01 AM
>
> >> To: Schnabel, Stefan <stefan.schnabel@sap.com 
> <mailto:stefan.schnabel@sap.com>>
>
> >> Cc: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com 
> <mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>>; Birkir
>
> >> Gunnarsson <birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com 
> <mailto:birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com>>; James Nurthen
>
> >> <james.nurthen@oracle.com <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>>; 
> public-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-aria@w3.org>
>
> >> Subject: Re: Why is aria-expanded invalid with a checkbox?
>
> >>
>
> >> No way would I want an expandable checkbox. It should fail a validator.
>
> >>
>
> >> Browsers let things like this pass because it is too expensive to 
> correct every possible poorly coded web page. They need to try to be 
> performant. This is a validator issue.
>
> >>
>
> >> Rich
>
> >>
>
> >> Sent from my iPad
>
> >>
>
> >>> On Feb 3, 2016, at 1:42 AM, Schnabel, Stefan 
> <stefan.schnabel@sap.com <mailto:stefan.schnabel@sap.com>> wrote:
>
> >>>
>
> >>> To be used in which pattern? Collapse/Expand of regions?
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Regards
>
> >>> Stefan
>
> >>>
>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
>
> >>> From: Bryan Garaventa [mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com]
>
> >>> Sent: Mittwoch, 3. Februar 2016 00:39
>
> >>> To: Birkir Gunnarsson <birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com 
> <mailto:birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com>>; James Nurthen
>
> >>> <james.nurthen@oracle.com <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>>
>
> >>> Cc: public-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-aria@w3.org>
>
> >>> Subject: RE: Why is aria-expanded invalid with a checkbox?
>
> >>>
>
> >>> I vote we just add this role to the spec, it already works.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> E.G
>
> >>>
>
> >>> <input type="checkbox" aria-expanded="true" title="Test" />
>
> >>>
>
> >>> This already sets the 'expanded' state in IE11, Firefox, and 
> Chrome in the accessibility tree.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
>
> >>> From: Birkir Gunnarsson [mailto:birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com]
>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 3:27 PM
>
> >>> To: James Nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com 
> <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>>
>
> >>> Cc: public-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-aria@w3.org>
>
> >>> Subject: Re: Why is aria-expanded invalid with a checkbox?
>
> >>>
>
> >>> As a screen reader, if I move to a checkbox and hear:
>
> >>> "I hold a non immigrant visa, checkbox not checked collapsed"
>
> >>> (<input type="checkbox" aria-expanded="false" aria-controls="niv">
>
> >>> <div role="region" aria-label="None Immigrant Visa information"
>
> >>> id="niv">
>
> >>>
>
> >>> ...
>
> >>> </div>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> I would know that checking that checkbox will cause additional 
> content to appear.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> You are right that aria-controls hints at the same thing, but it 
> is not necessarily tied to the display of a section of content.
>
> >>> It could be a submit button that becomes enabled only after I 
> check the checkbox.
>
> >>> It could also be a section that is already visible on the page but 
> checking the checkbox automatically changes default UI element settings.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> the use of aria-expanded would clearly tell me that a section of 
> the page will be expanded or collapsed as a result of me interacting 
> with the checkbox, the non-visual equivalent of seeing content appear 
> and disappear.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> I am just perplexed why aria-expanded is allowed on so many roles, 
> (I have some difficulty seeing the use cases for some of them), but 
> not on a check box.
>
> >>> Cheers
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>>> On 2/2/16, James Nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com 
> <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>> wrote:
>
> >>>> I'd have thought that checked in combination with aria-controls was
>
> >>>> enough here.
>
> >>>> Unless the checked and expanded state can be different (which I
>
> >>>> don't believe they could be) I would just use checked and 
> aria-controls.
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>>> On 2/2/2016 2:58 PM, Birkir Gunnarsson wrote:
>
> >>>>> Oh wise ones.
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>> I am working with a team that is implementing a form where
>
> >>>>> checking a check box expands a section further down the page.
>
> >>>>> They actually thought of putting aria-expanded and aria-controls
>
> >>>>> on the check box to communicate this info to assistive technologies.
>
> >>>>> I had to stop the because checkbox role is not one of the 40 or so
>
> >>>>> roles that allow the aria-expanded property.
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>>
>
> >>>>> I find this curious.
>
> >>>>> The situation I described, where sections of a dynamic form or
>
> >>>>> webpage are displayed or hidden in response to user checking or
>
> >>>>> unchecking a check box is quite common.
>
> >>>>> Sure, if the section of the page is, in content order, after the
>
> >>>>> checkbox that controls it, users do not necessarily need to be
>
> >>>>> aware of the change, but it is a very smart usability decision to
>
> >>>>> inform the user that checking a checkbox affects contents
>
> >>>>> elsewhere on the webpage.
>
> >>>>> My questions are:
>
> >>>>> 1. Why was aria-expanded not considered a valid attribute with
>
> >>>>> check boxes and, 2. Can this case be revisited? If so I'd be happy
>
> >>>>> to create an issue ticket if necessary.
>
> >>>>> Thanks
>
> >>>>> -Birkir
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> --
>
> >>>> Regards, James
>
> >>>>
>
> >>>> Oracle <http://www.oracle.com>
>
> >>>> James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
>
> >>>> Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <tel:+1%20650%20506%206781> | Mobile: +1 415
>
> >>>> 987
>
> >>>> 1918 <tel:+1%20415%20987%201918> | Video: 
> james.nurthen@oracle.com <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>
>
> >>>> <sip:james.nurthen@oracle.com> Oracle Corporate Architecture
>
> >>>> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood Cty, CA 94065 Green Oracle
>
> >>>> <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to
>
> >>>> developing practices and products that help protect the environment
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> --
>
> >>> Birkir R. Gunnarsson
>
> >>> Senior Accessibility Subject Matter Expert | Deque Systems
>
> >>> 2121 Cooperative Way, Suite 210
>
> >>> Herndon, VA, 20171
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Ph: (919) 607-27 53
>
> >>> Twitter: @birkir_gun
>
> >>>
>
> >
>

-- 
Regards, James

Oracle <http://www.oracle.com>
James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <tel:+1%20650%20506%206781> | Mobile: +1 415 987 
1918 <tel:+1%20415%20987%201918> | Video: james.nurthen@oracle.com 
<sip:james.nurthen@oracle.com>
Oracle Corporate Architecture
500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood Cty, CA 94065
Green Oracle <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to 
developing practices and products that help protect the environment
Received on Wednesday, 3 February 2016 18:25:23 UTC

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