- From: Matthew Atkinson <matkinson@tpgi.com>
- Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2023 15:06:34 +0000
- To: Sharon D Snider <snidersd@us.ibm.com>, "public-adapt@w3.org" <public-adapt@w3.org>
Hi all,
Brilliant discussion today; minutes at https://www.w3.org/2023/03/20-adapt-minutes.html
Best regards,
Matthew
– DRAFT –
WAI Adapt Task Force Teleconference
20 March 2023
[2]IRC log.
[2] https://www.w3.org/2023/03/20-adapt-irc
Attendees
Present
EA, janina, Lionel, matatk, Roy
Regrets
-
Chair
Sharon
Scribe
Lionel, matatk
Contents
1. [3]Registry meetings and updates
Meeting minutes
[introductions all 'round]
Registry meetings and updates
janina: We've a FPWD of the Registry, which made it possible
for Adapt's Symbols module to go to CR.
… This is about marking up general content on the web,
including e.g. digital books.
… The Symbols module allows authors to associate a Bliss
concept ID with content, and the Registry provides the ability
to look up concepts. We have some things to work on, including
… internationalization of the registry (so concepts can be
looked up in one's preferred language), and how we can manage
updates, and how other symbol sets could be added.
… Today we want to primarily talk about i18n.
Sharon: We have some questiosn around languages.
janina: Our core question is: do the symbols at all change if
the langauge changes?
… If so, then we need to ensure the structure of our registry
adapts.
Russell: The short answer is no. What can happen is a symbol
may be replaced for one reason or another, e.g. we come to a
better understanding of cultural biases, and replace a symbol.
… In this case, the replacement symbol will have a new ID.
… The other symbol would be marked as deprecated (which we flag
as "OLD").
… There may be synonym symbols (as in other languages).
Shirley: It's the ordering of the symbols in the sentence that
would be affected by language.
Annalu: Adding symbols to text is referred to as
"symbolization". This is not a language translation exercise,
but adding symbols to convey the concepts.
… E.g. the word "match" could be linked to the tool for
lighting a candle, or to a football match. The key issue for
symbolization is to correctly understand the concepts behind
the symbols.
… This is where the idea of "content coding" came about.
… i.e. giving each concept a unique number.
Sharon: We did an exercise where the language changed
direction, and the orderign of symbols changed, but would they
change directiont too?
Annalu: We've done quite a lot of work involving Hebrew and
Arabic. Some symbols _do_ change direction, but some don't.
EA: In particuular, numbers/numeric content. I sent some
examples to Lionel. Sometimes the positions of adjecteives and
adverbs change too.
… Also, spellings can change, based on gender, and other
factors.
… There are definitely different images that would be used
based on the cultture (e.g. "friends" would have different
people in groups in a symbol).
Annalu: Bliss demonstrates the complexities involved.
EA: Even the issue of whether you show two people (as friends)
or three (as friends) is dependent on the details of the
particular Arabic word
EA: You also have to simplify the sentence; can't just perform
a direct look-up. I sent some examples to Lionel.
… e.g. of a conscent form.
… When talking about Thai, Chinese, etc., you're really talking
about different concepts.
Annalu: We're trying to _support_ people to understand the
text, via the symbols, not to replace the text.
janina: I'm hearing several issues here that strike me as UA
requirements on how you take these and present them to users.
Other issues, e.g. AAC representation of some concepts might be
radically different from the textual representation.
… I think thsoe are somewhat apart from what we're trying to
achieve, which is that content publishers may be able to go in
and annotate spans of their content with BCI values, and users
that rely on AAC would,
… in addition to having the text, which will still be there,
would have the symbols.
janina: Our primary concenrn is for publishers to prescribe the
symbols. We may experiment with other approaches like AI in
future, but we're focusing in situatiosn where content is being
published in some "standard" orthography, and the symbols are
an optional extra.
janina: Does this sound like an accurate summary?
Lionel: Thanks all for being here, really important discussion.
Lionel: I suggest we stay with EA's example, as it's
clarifying. I understand: we've proposed a registry, as stated,
as we feel AAC symbols could be applied more broadly in
content.
… Microsoft recently announced their "immersive reader" which
you may've heard of, that supplies symbols to support content.
… In the example, there's a difference with the concept of
"friends" as to how many would be in the group, and what gender
they'd be.
… Our question is how would we add other languages to the
concept look-up.
… Thanks Annalu for the concept of "symbolization". So we have
a dictionary term "friends" and an entry for "friends" in the
registry, which points to a BCI number (whcih could be shown
with a Bliss or other symbol).
… E.g. I have content that mentions "friends" and I wish to
decorate it with the proper symbol. The registry gives me ID
1234, so I use this. If I am looking up the concept in the
registry in Saudi Arabia, in Arabic, how do I add this to the
registry, and what number would I get?
Annalu: What we've ben using are the WordNet concept codes. In
our work, the concept is the same, but the culture makes it
different.
Annalu: We need think of concept, and separate that from the
gloss and the culture we're in.
<Zakim> janina, you wanted to note that some languages will
have a different word for male friends vs female friends, at
least a different inflection
janina: I think this is an excellent point and we need to find
a way to manage it accordingly. I think I'm hearing it comes
from expectations from the language itself. I think in some
cases, the word may be a different word, or may have a
different inflection?
… I'm thinking of Slavic languages, for instance. I think we
could have the concepts enumerated that way. Not sure if we
want to have another index value. I think it's not so much that
the symbol changes, but that we have a way to express this in
the table of symbols.
… Our next step, having spken with you, will be for APA to
reach out to our W3C i18n colleauges.
… All of W3C's specs go through certain reviews (incling i18n,
accessibility, security, privacy) so ours will be reviewed too.
… This will include awareness of other cultures.
… As we reach a more solid understanding from you, we'll
involve the W3C i18n group, and you're welcome to join in that
process. This is a new application of this tech.
matatk: Seems we can have ways to extend the registry to
account, for some concepts, for things like language (implying
cultture), cardinality, etc. Appareciate your help in
explaining these considerations, and ensuring we cover them.
Russel: Thinking of Bliss symbol for "friend", it's
gender-neutral, "person" + "goodness". There are ways in Bliss
to account for numbers changing.
… Also technology changes. E.g. "we taped that" to mean "we
recorded it". A Bliss symbol may've had a pictograph of a tape
recorder, or telephone, but they will change over time.
EA & matatk: E.g. floopy disk save icon
janina: None of this is static.
Shirley: The complexity of language itself... as soon as you
encode a symbol for something, you have framed it in a certain
way.
EA: AAC is expressed in 2D but there's so much more
information/context.
Lionel: Focusing on "friends" and tackling the
internationalization of the word, for lookup in our registry.
… There could, as you say, in Arabic, be different words: one
for two friends, one for three.
… Accepting that the symnbols work in context, I feel we're on
safe ground, as we're relying on the content _author_ to pick
the symbol.
Lionel: In sign language, "friends" in one language can mean
"married" in another.
Lionel: So if you're using the AT in an Arabic country, you can
use the most apt symbol, but in other places it would use a
different one.
janina: There may be gaps here, but we can tackle those another
day. I think we are approachaing the 90% use case.
janina: We want to evolve the spec(s) in future.
Annalu: Symbol sets will need to order themselves in a certain
way in order to be used confidendly in this fashion.
Annalu: Other companies use systems which may match to the
Bliss numbers.
EA: Agree with Annalu; we know that to map the symbol sets,
even those that are free and available under CC licence, each
has their unique ID for _their_ labels and _their_ glasses.
They're not mapped against Bliss concepts. It's a job that can
be done, and AI may be able to help.
… They would need to be mapped, and checked.
… As Annalu says, it's a task that would be marvellous to
achieve. The difficulty will be with commercial sets; the
companies would need to open up their databases.
… They're mainly set to work on someone's specific device.
Lionel: Excited by this; sounds like you're saying that
starting with BCI would be good, but there may be an
intermediate step to map to other sets and, whilst it's
challenging, it's do-able.
EA: Yes, and e.g. Easy Reading EU project has shown this is
possible. An AAC web browser project was also done several
years ago.
Lionel: I propose that we can internationalize the gloss, as
you term it (we should use the right term, we were calling this
a "label").
Lionel: We can translate the glosses into other languages. We
can work on an interim lookup.
From Annalu: [4]https://discovery.dundee.ac.uk/en/publications/
building-a-lexical-database-for-an-interactive-joke-generator
[4] https://discovery.dundee.ac.uk/en/publications/building-a-lexical-database-for-an-interactive-joke-generator
<Sharon> [5]https://discovery.dundee.ac.uk/en/publications/
building-a-lexical-database-for-an-interactive-joke-generator
[5] https://discovery.dundee.ac.uk/en/publications/building-a-lexical-database-for-an-interactive-joke-generator
janina: Next steps? The next one seems to be outreach to i18n,
a "get acquainted" meeteing. Everyone here is welcome to
particiapte. They'll help us get this right, and we'll need
their sign-off.
Sharon: Thanks everyone, I've learnt a lot, and we really
appreciate your time.
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by
[6]scribe.perl version 210 (Wed Jan 11 19:21:32 2023 UTC).
[6] https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html
Diagnostics
Succeeded: s/examplse/examples
Maybe present: Annalu, Russel, Russell, Sharon, Shirley
All speakers: Annalu, EA, janina, Lionel, matatk, Russel,
Russell, Sharon, Shirley
Active on IRC: EA, janina, Lionel, matatk, Roy, Sharon
--
Matthew Tylee Atkinson (he/him)
--
Principal Accessibility Engineer
TPG Interactive
https://www.tpgi.com
A Vispero Company
https://www.vispero.com
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On 17/03/2023, 20:56, "Sharon D Snider" <snidersd@us.ibm.com <mailto:snidersd@us.ibm.com>> wrote:
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Hi all,
Please review the agenda for Monday's WAI-Adapt TF call and let us know if there are any other topics that need to be added.
Chair: Sharon
* Registry meetings and updates
* Update on A11y4Children (useful link, https://bob-dlc.github.io/clipps/ <https://bob-dlc.github.io/clipps/> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__bob-2Ddlc.github.io_clipps_&d=DwMFaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=q6CeBy-jUE_GzXaiR05kmdFthRkmv2ARV3s6VHZh7FI&m=Mi5sLdt5VKBmgqgwuP0xdWGMVW5tVcSfKGJqk8MlKrUYsO1mKsKnGtBJ12UdtbPF&s=GVk6OrPgguP8mZDDnnwmimLvV> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__bob-2Ddlc.github.io_clipps_&amp;d=DwMFaQ&amp;c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&amp;r=q6CeBy-jUE_GzXaiR05kmdFthRkmv2ARV3s6VHZh7FI&amp;m=Mi5sLdt5VKBmgqgwuP0xdWGMVW5tVcSfKGJqk8MlKrUYsO1mKsKnGtBJ12UdtbPF&amp;s=GVk6OrPgguP8mZDDnnwmimLvV>>)
* User Agents and Symbols (e.g. Immersive Reader)
* Gap Analysis
* Symbol Module Implementations
* Test to show rendering symbols do not 'break' existing pages.
* Review open issues
* Recruiting
The teleconference information is at: call info - adapt <https://www.w3.org/2017/08/telecon-info_adapt> <https://www.w3.org/2017/08/telecon-info_adapt>>
Time:
* 10:00 a.m. Eastern
* 05:00 p.m. IS
* 03:00 p.m. UK
IRC access:
* An IRC (Internet Relay Chat) channel will be available during the call at: https://irc.w3.org/?channels= <https://irc.w3.org/?channels=> <http://irc.w3.org/?channels=adapt>adapt <http://irc.w3.org/?channels=adapt>adapt>
* The server is irc.w3.org <https://irc.w3.org/> <https://irc.w3.org/>>
* The port number is 6665
* The channel is #adapt.
* You can write any name as a nickname
Resources and useful links:
* Wiki <https://github.com/w3c/adapt/wiki> <https://github.com/w3c/adapt/wiki>> - this page has links to all our work
* Mailing list archives <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-adapt/> <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-adapt/>>
* Web-Based Surveys (WBS) <https://t.sidekickopen90.com/s3t/c/5/f18dQhb0S7kF8cFFTBW4T_qld2zGCwVN8Jbw_8QsRtKVn1vXj1p1kknW16gGBN41Jd6G101?te=W3R5hFj4cm2zwW4mKLS-4mbkbhW49LdqK1N4hm1W1N81nQ3Cfv3hw1N4K5047V2&si=8000000004174048&pi=8e540703-aba8-4282-85a0-c6cb1d664a5f> <https://t.sidekickopen90.com/s3t/c/5/f18dQhb0S7kF8cFFTBW4T_qld2zGCwVN8Jbw_8QsRtKVn1vXj1p1kknW16gGBN41Jd6G101?te=W3R5hFj4cm2zwW4mKLS-4mbkbhW49LdqK1N4hm1W1N81nQ3Cfv3hw1N4K5047V2&amp;si=8000000004174048&amp;pi=8e540703-aba8-4282-85a0-c6cb1d664a5f>>
* Adapt source repository issue tracker <https://t.sidekickopen90.com/s3t/c/5/f18dQhb0S7kF8cFFTBW4T_qld2zGCwVN8Jbw_8QsRtKVn1vXj1p1kknW16gGBN41Jd6G101?te=W3R5hFj4cm2zwW3P28X24hCPvhW43T4Pc1Vp7RpW3H3bfK1LyzF74W1vp1&si=8000000004174048&pi=8e540703-aba8-4282-85a0-c6cb1d664a5f> <https://t.sidekickopen90.com/s3t/c/5/f18dQhb0S7kF8cFFTBW4T_qld2zGCwVN8Jbw_8QsRtKVn1vXj1p1kknW16gGBN41Jd6G101?te=W3R5hFj4cm2zwW3P28X24hCPvhW43T4Pc1Vp7RpW3H3bfK1LyzF74W1vp1&amp;si=8000000004174048&amp;pi=8e540703-aba8-4282-85a0-c6cb1d664a5f>>
Regards,
Sharon Snider
IBM Design ► IBM Accessibility Team
(512)965-3957
www.ibm.com/able <https://www.ibm.com/able> <https://www.ibm.com/able>> and w3.ibm.com/able <https://w3.ibm.com/able> <https://w3.ibm.com/able>>
Received on Monday, 20 March 2023 15:06:54 UTC