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RE: What is a SOAP Message

From: <noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 23:14:12 -0500
To: "David Orchard" <dorchard@bea.com>
Cc: "'Mark Baker'" <distobj@acm.org>, "'Jean-Jacques Moreau'" <jean-jacques.moreau@crf.canon.fr>, xml-dist-app@w3.org
Message-ID: <OFF2C1C8B4.80AB2B65-ON85256CC4.0016B990@lotus.com>

David Orchard asks:

>> Does that mean if I have a method in an HTML form - 
>> like GetStockQuote :-) - that the HTML result 
>> isn't a representation as well? 

My view is:  if you use our wonderful new REST-compatible recommendations 
to map that GetStockQuote to a GET on a URI representing the quote, then 
the SOAP envelope that comes back is indeed a representation in the sense 
we use the word on the web.  Otherwise, I think it's confusing to call it 
a "representation".  Whether it is something more interesting than a 
"response message" depends on whether you are using some other 
application-level meta-idiom in place of REST (gee, it must be late...I 
can't believe I actually used the term application-level meta-idiom.) So, 
my view is:

Envelope:  an Infoset (not Gudge's pre-transform infoset, just the 
traditional SOAP envelope). 

Properties:  the usual term for additional data that parameterizes a SOAP 
activity...note that some properties travel from hop to hop

Message:  the information sent from one SOAP node to another.  This 
typically includes a SOAP envelope (though not in the case of an outbound 
REST GET), and MAY include other information, typically properties.

On the wire format:  at the discretion of the binding.  The recommendation 
suggests using application/soap+xml as the representation of the envelope 
infoset where practical.  All other information is at the discretion of 
the binding.

Representation:  I think we should use this term EXACTLY in the manner 
that REST prescribes.  It therefore applies only when we are using the 
WebMethod feature, and I think it covers that portion of the message that 
represents the resource referenced.  I think there is some question as to 
whether term representation maps exactly to the Envelope (which may 
contain routing headers, caching hints, etc.) or whether it is best used 
only to refer to those portions of the on the wire format that are in some 
sense corresponding to the resource itself.

Noah Mendelsohn                              Voice: 1-617-693-4036
IBM Corporation                                Fax: 1-617-693-8676
One Rogers Street
Cambridge, MA 02142

"David Orchard" <dorchard@bea.com>
02/04/2003 10:08 PM

        To:     "'Mark Baker'" <distobj@acm.org>
        cc:     <noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com>, "'Jean-Jacques Moreau'" 
<jean-jacques.moreau@crf.canon.fr>, <xml-dist-app@w3.org>
        Subject:        RE: What is a SOAP Message

woah, that seems a bit extreme.

Does that mean if I have a method in an HTML form - like GetStockQuote :-) 
that the HTML result isn't a representation as well?  I assume that the
non-representation that is an HTML page is still "on the web".

So dereferencing URIs can result in representations and 
In which case, the Web Architecture has to talk about non-representations 
well as representations.  That's most excellent.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: xml-dist-app-request@w3.org
> [mailto:xml-dist-app-request@w3.org]On
> Behalf Of Mark Baker
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 6:32 PM
> To: David Orchard
> Cc: noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com; 'Jean-Jacques Moreau';
> xml-dist-app@w3.org
> Subject: Re: What is a SOAP Message
> On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 02:48:58PM -0800, David Orchard wrote:
> > While I can't see
> > where REST speaks about binding to protocols being in the
> definition of
> > representations, it also doesn't appear to preclude this.
> REST talks about
> > representations being the transfer of application state.
> Right, representations are serializations of application state.  But
> everything is not a representation.  For example, any SOAP
> envelope with
> a method in it is not a representation.
> For at least one use of SOAP - the so-called "chameleon" use - it
> appears that what you call a "SOAP representation" is indeed a
> representation.  But in the tunnel use of SOAP, or when SOAP
> is bound to
> a *transport* protocol, a "SOAP representation" is not a
> representation.
> Just my 2c.
> MB
> --
> Mark Baker.   Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA.        http://www.markbaker.ca
> Web architecture consulting, technical reports, evaluation & analysis
Received on Tuesday, 4 February 2003 23:22:28 UTC

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