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RE: What is a SOAP Message

From: David Orchard <dorchard@bea.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 08:58:34 -0800
To: <noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com>
Cc: "'Mark Baker'" <distobj@acm.org>, "'Jean-Jacques Moreau'" <jean-jacques.moreau@crf.canon.fr>, <xml-dist-app@w3.org>
Message-ID: <002501c2cd38$7ce12df0$ba0ba8c0@beasys.com>

So what kind of interaction is being done when the WebMethod feature is not
used?  What is the interaction with the URI then?  If dereferencing a URI
almost always produces a Representation, then clearly a verb different than
"dereferencing" is being done.

Is it something like "SOAP supports dereferencing URIs to retrieve a
representation that is of application/soap+xml, and SOAP supports
interacting in a non-dereferncing manner with URIs to retrieve a
non-representation that is of application/soap+xml"?

Cheers,
Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com [mailto:noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 8:14 PM
> To: David Orchard
> Cc: 'Mark Baker'; 'Jean-Jacques Moreau'; xml-dist-app@w3.org
> Subject: RE: What is a SOAP Message
>
>
> David Orchard asks:
>
> >> Does that mean if I have a method in an HTML form -
> >> like GetStockQuote :-) - that the HTML result
> >> isn't a representation as well?
>
> My view is:  if you use our wonderful new REST-compatible
> recommendations
> to map that GetStockQuote to a GET on a URI representing the
> quote, then
> the SOAP envelope that comes back is indeed a representation
> in the sense
> we use the word on the web.  Otherwise, I think it's
> confusing to call it
> a "representation".  Whether it is something more interesting than a
> "response message" depends on whether you are using some other
> application-level meta-idiom in place of REST (gee, it must
> be late...I
> can't believe I actually used the term application-level
> meta-idiom.) So,
> my view is:
>
> Envelope:  an Infoset (not Gudge's pre-transform infoset, just the
> traditional SOAP envelope).
>
> Properties:  the usual term for additional data that
> parameterizes a SOAP
> activity...note that some properties travel from hop to hop
>
> Message:  the information sent from one SOAP node to another.  This
> typically includes a SOAP envelope (though not in the case of
> an outbound
> REST GET), and MAY include other information, typically properties.
>
> On the wire format:  at the discretion of the binding.  The
> recommendation
> suggests using application/soap+xml as the representation of
> the envelope
> infoset where practical.  All other information is at the
> discretion of
> the binding.
>
> Representation:  I think we should use this term EXACTLY in
> the manner
> that REST prescribes.  It therefore applies only when we are
> using the
> WebMethod feature, and I think it covers that portion of the
> message that
> represents the resource referenced.  I think there is some
> question as to
> whether term representation maps exactly to the Envelope (which may
> contain routing headers, caching hints, etc.) or whether it
> is best used
> only to refer to those portions of the on the wire format
> that are in some
> sense corresponding to the resource itself.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Noah Mendelsohn                              Voice: 1-617-693-4036
> IBM Corporation                                Fax: 1-617-693-8676
> One Rogers Street
> Cambridge, MA 02142
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "David Orchard" <dorchard@bea.com>
> 02/04/2003 10:08 PM
>
>
>         To:     "'Mark Baker'" <distobj@acm.org>
>         cc:     <noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com>, "'Jean-Jacques Moreau'"
> <jean-jacques.moreau@crf.canon.fr>, <xml-dist-app@w3.org>
>         Subject:        RE: What is a SOAP Message
>
>
> woah, that seems a bit extreme.
>
> Does that mean if I have a method in an HTML form - like
> GetStockQuote :-)
> -
> that the HTML result isn't a representation as well?  I
> assume that the
> non-representation that is an HTML page is still "on the web".
>
> So dereferencing URIs can result in representations and
> non-representations?
> In which case, the Web Architecture has to talk about
> non-representations
> as
> well as representations.  That's most excellent.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xml-dist-app-request@w3.org
> > [mailto:xml-dist-app-request@w3.org]On
> > Behalf Of Mark Baker
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 6:32 PM
> > To: David Orchard
> > Cc: noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com; 'Jean-Jacques Moreau';
> > xml-dist-app@w3.org
> > Subject: Re: What is a SOAP Message
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 02:48:58PM -0800, David Orchard wrote:
> > > While I can't see
> > > where REST speaks about binding to protocols being in the
> > definition of
> > > representations, it also doesn't appear to preclude this.
> > REST talks about
> > > representations being the transfer of application state.
> >
> > Right, representations are serializations of application state.  But
> > everything is not a representation.  For example, any SOAP
> > envelope with
> > a method in it is not a representation.
> >
> > For at least one use of SOAP - the so-called "chameleon" use - it
> > appears that what you call a "SOAP representation" is indeed a
> > representation.  But in the tunnel use of SOAP, or when SOAP
> > is bound to
> > a *transport* protocol, a "SOAP representation" is not a
> > representation.
> >
> > Just my 2c.
> >
> > MB
> > --
> > Mark Baker.   Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA.
http://www.markbaker.ca
> Web architecture consulting, technical reports, evaluation & analysis
>
Received on Wednesday, 5 February 2003 12:05:35 GMT

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