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Minutes, 11 Dec 2003 WS Desc WG telcon

From: Jonathan Marsh <jmarsh@microsoft.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:10:32 -0800
Message-ID: <DF1BAFBC28DF694A823C9A8400E71EA2020ABAF5@RED-MSG-30.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
To: <www-ws-desc@w3.org>

Web Services Description Working Group
2003-12-11 conference call minutes.

Scribe: Jerry Thrasher

Attendance:
 Erik Ackerman          Lexmark
 David Booth            W3C
 Allen Brookes          Rogue Wave Software
 Glen Daniels           Sonic Software
 Paul Downey            British Telecommunications
 Youenn Fablet          Canon
 Dietmar Gaertner       Software AG
 Tom Jordahl            Macromedia
 Jacek Kopecky          Systinet
 Sandeep Kumar          Cisco Systems
 Philippe Le Hégaret    W3C
 Lily Liu               webMethods
 Jonathan Marsh         Chair (Microsoft)
 Jeff Mischkinsky       Oracle
 David Orchard          BEA Systems
 Bijan Parsia           University of Maryland MIND Lab
 Arthur Ryman           IBM
 Igor Sedukhin          Computer Associates
 Jerry Thrasher         Lexmark
 William Vambenepe      Hewlett-Packard
 Sanjiva Weerawarana    IBM
 Umit Yalcinalp         Oracle
 Prasad Yendluri        webMethods, Inc.

Regrets:
 Roberto Chinnici       Sun Microsystems
 Kevin Canyang Liu      SAP
 Ingo Melzer            DaimlerChrysler
 Dale Moberg            Cyclone Commerce
 Jean-Jacques Moreau    Canon
 Adi Sakala             IONA Technologies

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda:

1.  Assign scribe.
2.  Approval of minutes.
3.  Review of Action items
4.  Administrivia
5.  Task Force Status.
6.  New Issues.
7.  Issue closure 
8.  Circular includes
9.  Pattern descriptive text
10. Issue 85: HTTP binding options 
11. Schemas in imported WSDL
12. Proposal for combining the two attribute operation styles to one
13. Issue 64 [.1] Operations an HTTP verbs
14. Appendix E cleanup 
15. Using RDF in WSDL
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Agenda Items:

2.  Approval of minutes from Dec. 4 telecon:  (Done)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
3.  Review of Action items:

2003-07-31: Philippe to make a proposal for fixing the
		HTTP binding.

		Discussion: 
		Being discussed currently during telecons to define
		the scope.

		Resolution: 
		(Retired) until scope of HTTP binding is defined...

		New Action Item: None


2003-09-11: Philippe to write a response to Mark Baker
		proposing a property solution to HTTP verbs
		and ask whether this satisfies his request.

		Discussion:
		Resolution: Retired
		New Action Item: None


2003-09-18: Marsh to review the QA operational
            guidelines.

		Discussion:
		Resolution: Pending
		New Action Item: None

2003-10-09: Bijan to look into message extensibility
		Issues (Appendix E, Jacek's review) wrt RDF data,
		and discuss with Jacek.

		Discussion:
		Resolution: Pending
		New Action Item: None

2003-11-03: PaulD to work out proposal for a top-level fault
		in more detail.

		Discussion:
		Comments from Glen pending and proposal will be sent soon. 

		Resolution: Pending

		New Action Item: None

2003-11-03: Umit (with help of Glen) will write up a proposal
		for normative dispatching feature.

		Discussion: 
		Resolution: Pending
		New Action Item: None

2003-11-04: Glen to write up rationale for removing headers
		(and?) proposal for a generic header-adding
		property/feature.

		Discussion:
		Resolution: Pending
		New Action Item: None

2003-11-13: Tibco\Amy to draft sample scenarios for MEPs.
		Done

		Discussion:
		Resolution: Done
		New Action Item: None

2003-11-13: DBooth to add discussion / example(s) re:
		@schemaLocation for embedded schemas to the
		primer.

		Discussion: Currently a placeholder in primer,
		example will need to be a cooperative effort.

		Resolution: Done

		New Action Item: None

2003-11-20: alewis to write up circular includes in spec'ese.
		

		Discussion:
		Resolution: Done
		New Action Item:

2003-11-20: GlenD to write up Schemas in imported WSDL stuff
		in spec-ese.

		Discussion:
		Resolution: Pending
		New Action Item:

--------------------------------------------------------------------
4.  Administrivia
a. Charter update review [.1]
	3 month extension then switch patent policy? (Philippe)

		Discussion:
		Philippe: New patent policy will be effective Feb. 1
		for new charters.  Group would prefer to avoid the new patent
		policy in the charter renewal. (current charter expires Jan. 31
		2003).   

		Resolution:
		Proceed to renew charter with current patent policy
		and change to the new patent policy later if the group
		deems necessary.

		New Action Item: None

- RDF mapping a Rec track doc? [.2]

		Discussion:
		Philippe: Can add this to the charter update to include as
		Rec track document if necessary.
		JohnM: Concern about adding a deliverable REC...

		Resolution:
		No addition to charter at current time.

				
- Additional participants for testing? [.3]

		Discussion:
		JohnM: Suggesting the ability to adding additional up to (2) 		persons specifically for testing and testability issues/tasks. 
		JeffM: Would extra participants have group voting rights?
		JohnM: Formal votes are still by company, straw polls etc. is 		still by participant.
		JeffM: Concern that additional participants could bias towards
		a company that added these people vs. one that didn't.
		JohnM: Process doesn't allow invited experts from member 			companies.
		
		Group Discussion:
		Discussed ways to include additional people (task force etc.)
		XMLP Group added people for testing specific tasks. 				(Soapbuilders)...(how)?
		Discussed the IP related issues related outside participants 
		submitting test cases etc. to the W3C.

		Could set up a public mailing list to allow outside/additional
		resources to work on test suites.....

		Resolution:
		It was decided to NOT add any specific provision in the updated
		charter to address this.
		Additional participants for testing issues will be handled 
		informally...later. 
		

b. Holiday telcon schedule:

	No telcons: Dec 25, Jan 1

		

c. Upcoming FTFs
- January 26-30, Bedford, MA (Sonic) [.4]
	WSArch 26-29(noon)
	WSDesc 28(noon)-30
	Please register! [.5]
	Joint session topics: Usage scenarios document (NOTE)

- March 1-2 or 4-5, Cannes-Mandelieu, France.
	Joint session with the TAG?

		Discussion: 
		JohnM: Reminder, register for Jan. 2004 F2F.
		Question about the March meeting (full W3C plenary??)
		Yes.
		

[.1] http://www.w3.org/2003/12/ws-desc-charter
[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-desc/2003Dec/0020.html
[.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-desc/2003Dec/0029.html
[.4] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/4/04-01-f2f.htm
[.5] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34650/WSAD0401/

------------------------------------------------------------------
5.  Task Force Status.
a. Properties and Features (dormant)
b. Patterns (dormant)
c. Attributes (dormant)
d. QA & Testing
- Response to comments on QA Spec Guidelines [.2]
- Implement QA Operational guidelines? [.3]

		
e. Joint TF on media type description.

		Discussion:
		Umit requested a mailing list for this TF.
		Dbooth and Umit will handle offline.

		JohnM: Need to coordinate with XMLP group.
		

[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Sep/0023.html
[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Sep/0074.html
[.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-desc/2003Sep/0023.html
[.4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-xml-protocol-   	wg/2003Nov/0022.html

------------------------------------------------------------------
6.  New Issues.  Merged issues list [.1].
- Fault ruleset accommodation for discarding faults (Jacek) [.2]

		Discussion:
		Jacek: Agree with Ami position that an MEP can mandate
		the fault ruleset, any further restriction capability is
		out of scope.

		Resolution: Closed (no change)

		New Action Item: none

[.1] http://tinyurl.com/mwuy
(Note that [.1] redirects to
http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/ws/desc/issues/wsd-issues.html)
[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Dec/0022.html

------------------------------------------------------------------
7.  Issue closure (Jacek) [.1]
- Issues 26 [.2]: Replace transmission primitives by MEPs in
operation.
Recommend closing now that we have well-defined patterns.
- Issue 3 [.3]: How can arrays be declared?
Recommend closing - we don't deal with SOAP Encoding.
- Issue 14 [.4]: Request to support SOAP features.
Recommend closing - we have features & properties.
- Issue 23 [.5]: Request to support SOAP 1.2
Recommend splitting issue into:
Support for the Data Model and Encoding
Support for RPC
Support for transport binding framework
Features (handled in Issue 14)
- Issue 32 [.6]: Will SOAP 1.1 still be supported?
Recommend closing - we won't support it in our spec.
- Issue 65 [.7]: WSDL binding for FTP?
Recommend closing - we won't do a SOAP/FTP binding.
- Issue 69 [.8]: Marking headers as optional or required.
Recommend fixing title of issue, then close since we removed
headers.



		Discussion:
		Explanatory text for closing Issue 69 is mis-worded,
		(agenda cut and paste error)

		Resolution: Accepted/Closed all except Issue 32:
		Issue 32 will remain open and be discussed at a future
		telecon or F2F.

		New Action Item: none


[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Dec/0014.html
[.2] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/2/06/issues.html#x26
[.3] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/2/06/issues.html#x3
[.4] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/2/06/issues.html#x14
[.5] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/2/06/issues.html#x23
[.6] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/2/06/issues.html#x32
[.7] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/2/06/issues.html#x65
[.8] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/2/06/issues.html#x69

------------------------------------------------------------------
8.  Circular includes
- specese from Amy [.1] for WG ratification

		Discussion:
		Amy, not on the call but did provide text.
		JohnM: Any dissent to accepting??
		Sanjiva: suggests integrating and then reviewing.
		Dbooth posted some suggested editorial/clarifying
		text to Amy's text.

		Resolution:
		Accepted Amy's text w/ Dbooth's suggested edits.
		
		New Action Item:
		Ed-todo to incorperate text.

[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Dec/0019.html

------------------------------------------------------------------
9.  Pattern descriptive text
- descriptions from Amy [.1] for WG ratification

		Discussion:
		Amy, not on the call but did provide text.
		JohnM: Any dissent to accepting??
		Jacek: posted to the list some clarifying text

		Resolution:
		Accepted Amy's text w/ Jacek's edits.

		New Action Item:
		Ed-todo to incorperate text.


[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Dec/0020.html

------------------------------------------------------------------
10. Issue 85: HTTP binding options [.1]
- option 1: drop HTTP binding
- option 2: input becomes POST body and output is POST response
- option 3: option 2 + GET goes to http:address URL and output is
GET response
- option 4: option 3 + rules to move all parameters into query
parameters for GET binding with MEP=in-out and
@style=rpc
- option 5: option 4 + URL replacement (not just query params)
Continue thread from previous weeks.

		Discussion:
		JohnM: Current group thoughts look somewhere between
		Option 3 and Option 4.
		
		Sanjiva and Philippe:
		Discussed how a message/elements would be "divided" between
		URL, query params. (What would the rules be...?)
		
		Jacek: against splitting message elements. message
		should be contained in the body.

		Arthur: no harm in duplicate info in URI if helps addressing.
		Umit: agrees w/ Jacek 

		Long discussion about splitting of information.
		Generally agreed that query params are ok as long as the
		payload contains the complete set.
		Question about messages that could be completely represented
		in the URI/URL. (Still a need to have duplicate info. in the 		body??)

		
		Resolution: none that the scribe could detect...:) 


		New Action Item

		Philippe: will write/update proposal and post to the list that
		"reflects" the "concensus" of the group.
		


[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Nov/0048.html
[.2] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/2/06/issues.html#x85


Meeting Adjourned:

==================================================================
Un-Addressed items from the agenda:
==================================================================
Following items pending additional input:
------------------------------------------------------------------
11. Schemas in imported WSDL (no issue number) [.1]
- Seems to be agreement on the existing behavior as described by
Gudge and Amy.  Still outstanding: do we add note along the lines
of Glen's suggestion: put text in the spec to the effect that WSDL
processors SHOULD make schema namespaces embedded in the <types>
sections of imported WSDLs available to their schema processors for
xs:import where possible.

Awaiting specese sample from Glen.

[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Nov/0109.html

------------------------------------------------------------------
12. Proposal for combining the two attribute operation styles to one
(Jacek - no issue number) [.1]
Deferred pending final disposition of attribute styles.

[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Nov/0164.html

------------------------------------------------------------------
13. Issue 64 [.1] Operations an HTTP verbs (Mark Baker) [.2, .3, .4]
- Jacek's synthesis [.5].
- Awaiting description from Philippe showing how properties or
extensions can be used to annotate the WSDL with RESTful
properties.  Ask Mark for a definitive list of those properties
so we can consider how to associate them with property URIs or
namespaces.
- Marking WSDL operations as "safe" (DaveO/TAG) [.6, .7]

[.1] http://tinyurl.com/mwuy#x64
[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003May/0094.html
[.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Jan/0103.html
[.4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Jan/0111.html
[.5] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Jul/0095.html
[.6] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Nov/0104.html
[.7] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Dec/0021.html

------------------------------------------------------------------
14. Appendix E cleanup [.1]

[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Sep/0136.html

------------------------------------------------------------------
15. Using RDF in WSDL [.1].
Dependent upon RDF mapping first draft.

[.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003May/0076.html
Received on Monday, 15 December 2003 15:10:28 GMT

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