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ADMIN: Revised Minutes for 19 Sept Telecon

From: Evan Wallace <ewallace@cme.nist.gov>
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:10:09 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <200209242110.RAA25139@clue.msid.cme.nist.gov>
To: www-webont-wg@w3.org



Minutes of 19 Sept 2002 telecon:

Executive Summary:

DECISIONS:
-Modified minutes for 12 Sept accepted as true record.
-Dates for ftf5 will be 9-10 Jan.
-Issue 2.2 closed as proposed by Peter Patel-Schneider.
-ftf4 documents should be in final form by EDT Friday 27 Sept.

NEW ACTIONS:
ACTION: Jeff Heflin - produce a test case/use case for versioning
 feature and send it to the list.
ACTION: Pat Hayes - update embedded semantics document and provide an appendix to
 point out the position that the semantics takes on Issues.
ACTION: Authors of Working Drafts - summarize document changes to WOWG list.

CONTINUED ACTIONS:
ACTION: Carroll - update WG on networking for f2f
ACTION: Hendler - Prepare talking points for press release.
ACTION: Schreiber - review guide
ACTION: Thompson - review guide
ACTION: Obrst - review guide.
ACTION: van Harmelen - send e-mail about foreign properties and issue 5.6
ACTION: Hayes - send e-mail opposing deprecation.
ACTION: Hendler produce test for issue 4.2
ACTION: Guus to update UML document to reflect new Owl Lite
ACTION: Mike Dean: will document how he's using RDF statement tags, and
how to solve this. Does his solution satisfy the requirements in the 
requirements document?
ACTION: Frank will come up with some more use cases (ontology merging).
ACTION: Pat to create a sketch of an idea, for Issue 5.19 by next Tuesday.


More detail:

AGENDA:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Sep/0236.html

IRC LOG:
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/19-webont-irc

Notation:
The minutes below consist of the agenda with notes interspersed.
Decisions and new actions are marked with a capitalized label.  Other
direct observed occurrences or utterances are put within <single angle
brackets>.  Observations that are radically summarized or paraphrased
are in <<double angle brackets>> to warn of the personal perspective
that may strongly influence them.

1) ADMIN (10 min)


1.1 Roll call

Present:
Borden, Carroll, Connolly, Dale, Eshelman, Finin, Gibbins, Hayes,
Heflin, Horrocks, Klein, Lassila, McGuinness, Patel-Schneider,
Sabbouh, Schreiber, M. Smith, Stein, ter Horst, Volz, Welty

Regrets: 
Buswell, Dean, Hellman, Hendler, Miller, Obrst, Stanton, Van Harmelon,
Yanosy


1.2 Minutes previous meeting

RESOLVED: Accepted (with ammendments below) the following as a true
record of Sept 12 telecon:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Sep/0172.html
 ammend attendance list as described in jjc email  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Sep/0265.html
 and ammend the regrets list as described in Nick Gibbons email
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Sep/0276.html>

<seconded by Wallace, passed by acclamation>

1.3 Next telecon

- Sep 26, per regular schedule
<Dan C. offers regrets for next week>
- Scribe for Sep 26 will be Raphael Volz
- no telecon on Oct 3

1.4 Upcoming ftf meetings

Bristol ftf4 update (Jeremy):
http://www-uk.hpl.hp.com/people/jjc/webont/webontOct.html
<Catering sorted out.
 Bus organized, leaving at 9:10.
 See email for schedule.>

Update on ftf5 (chair, Ian)
- dates: originally both 6-7 Jan and 9-10 Jan were options. In the
tally we only included 9-10 Jan as dates, amongst other because Jim
cannot make it on 6-7. Unless there are compelling reasons to reopen
this, the chairs want to stick to Jan 9-10.
<No opposition expressed in telecon.>

RESOLVED: the dates for ftf5 will be Jan 9-10 

- short discussion on facilities for remote access
<Access grid
  range of possibilities:
   -full access grid use
   -video conference without grid
   -phone + webcam
   -just teleconference
 McGuiness would participate by grid.
 Ora Lassila (Boston) and Lynn Stein also?
 Ora has picture-tell, speaker phones, and direct connection.
 8 people said they would go to NY if Welty hosted satellite meeting.
  However, he now believes he will attend the meeting in person.
 Deb has video teleconferencing facility, just no grid access.
 Ian suggests netmeeting style video conferencing.
 Some discussion about what is required for it and what it provides.
 People who want to use such access should express their preference in
  email to chairs and Ian.>

2) ACTION review: (10 min)

ACTION: Carroll - update WG on networking for f2f
CONTINUED

ACTION: Hendler - Prepare talking points for press release.
CONTINUED

ACTION: Schreiber - review guide
CONTINUED <partial review sent Sept 19
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Sep/0277.html>

ACTION: Thompson - review guide
CONTINUED <by the end of week>

ACTION: Obrst - review guide.
CONTINUED

ACTION: Patel-Schneider -  write up "syntactic" proposal for issue 5.6
DONE
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Sep/0166.html

ACTION: van Harmelen - send e-mail about foreign properties and issue 5.6
CONTINUED

ACTION: Carroll - send e-mail on what is in an onto.
DONE 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Sep/0175.html

ACTION: Hayes - send e-mail opposing deprecation.
CONTINUED

ACTION: Hayes - send e-mail with text to propose the closure of issue 5.3.
DONE
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Sep/0261.html

ACTION: Schreiber - add classes as instances and literal/data values to
agenda for 19th.
DONE

ACTION: Hendler produce test for issue 4.2
CONTINUED

ACTION: Guus to update UML document to reflect new Owl Lite
CONTINUED


ACTION: Ian Horrocks will look at alternate arrangements for vtc (in
Manchester for F2F5).
DONE

ACTION: Mike Dean: will document how he's using RDF statement tags, and
how to solve this. Does his solution satisfy the requirements in the 
requirements document?
CONTINUED

ACTION: Frank will come up with some more use cases (ontology merging).
CONTINUED

ACTION: Ian to make a suggestion on how to solve this, adding properties
to data values.
DONE

ACTION: Dan to elaborate his use cases/requirements on this.
DONE
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Sep/0271.html>

ACTION: Pat to create a sketch of an idea, for Issue 5.19 by next Tuesday.
CONTINUED <<new deadline needed?>>

ACTION: Pat to complete first document on embedding  (and Peter and
Pat to discuss this on phone to next telecon). Ian will send comments to
Peter and Pat.
CONTINUED <estimated to be complete this Friday Sept 21>

3) ISSUES (45-60 min.)

3.1 ISSUES 2.2 and 2.3
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/webont-issues.html#I2.2-Adding-Properties-to-Other-Instances
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/webont-issues.html#I2.3-Adding-Properties-to-Other-Classes

Proposal by Peter Patel-Schneider to close Issue 2.2 with the same
motivation as Issue 2.3:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Sep/0209.html
<Guus seconded>
RESOLVED <as Peter suggested, (see JHendler email) Mike Smith will affect
this change in Issue doc>
<Issue document change was already complete at the time of this writing according to 
 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Sep/0281.htm>

3.2 ISSUE 5.6 - daml:imports as magic syntax
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/webont-issues.html#I5.6-daml:imports-as-magic-syntax
Heflin's proposal (Sep 9):
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Sep/0089.html

- status of debate: main options/decision points
<Jeff Heflin summarized this issue at
 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Sep/0272.html>

- actions for amended/new resolution
<Jeff in favor of entailment based.
 Imports and Ontology dark to OWL.
 Meaning of referencing a class without importing it:
  import everything or nothing or invalid.>

<Peter claims that Jeff's proposal is a complete overhaul of OWL (and
 Pat agrees, extending this to RDF and semantic web)>

<Jonathon states that this will be hard for RDF>

<Dan thinks that this can be done without a comprehension of this
 in the language.  This doesn't change OWL or RDF.  His tools already
 do this.>

<Jonathon disagrees that Dan's mechanism actually does what is wanted
 and stays within RDF semantics>

<Pat - Semantic compromise is available.  Don't formalize what it
 means.  All OWL knows about IMPORTS A is that these things are
 included but not understood>

<Jeff - It would sort of be in the domain of discourse but you can't
 say other things about this.>

<Raphael - Use XPointer for inclusion by pointing into the middle of
 the document.>

<Dan - Still prefers no import statement.>

<Mike - still worried about loops with includes.>

<Jonathon - one could create some syntactic thing like Xincludes that 
 _can_ tolerate loops.>

<Jos agrees with Dan.>

<Pat says we shouldn't even consider options restricting the use
 of non-imported objects.>
<Resource references in this are document names and not indication of
 the document content>

<Jonathan had to leave>
<<Lots of alternatives discussed, but no agreement.>>
<We will break up this issue into the four parts described.
 No one assigned the task.>

3.3 ISSUE 5.14 - Ontology versioning
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/webont-issues.html#I5.14-Ontology-versioning
Heflin's proposal (Sep 9):
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Sep/0090.html

- status of debate: main options/decision points
- actions for amended/new resolution


<Dan testcase
  All dolphins are animals in old ontology.
  If X is a dolphin in a new ontology, is it an animal if I haven't 
  asserted this?>

<<Lots of discussion on this (which I found confusing).  Jeff seemed to
  be proposing simply that an ontology which is annotated as backwards compatible
  with an antecedent ontology essentially brings in the terms from the
  old ontology with their same meaning.
  Many questions were asked about this.  Resulting in:>>

NEW ACTION: Jeff Heflin to produce a test case/use case for versioning
feature and send it to the list.
<Completed already - see 
 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Sep/0302.html>
 

3.4 ISSUE 5.3 Semantic layering
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/webont-issues.html#I5.3-Semantic-Layering

- status of the embedding Approach to Layering
- proposed resolution to be posted to list before telecon.

<Pat- see yesterday's message on Issue 5.3 (#0261).  It is a summary as to where
 I'm at on this.  Peter should now be considered a co-author given
 his contributions.>
<One distinguishes the OWL Universe and RDF Universe, then
 defines the relationship.  OWL could have a more disciplined 
 interpretation which leads to computational advantages.
 Relationshp between OWL Thing and RDFS Class and RDF property
 (closure conditions).>
<Guus suggests the choice on this relationship could possibly
 be made by the user!? >
<Peter has a Sept 11 version
 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Sep/att-0136/01-part>
<Ian pessimistic of success with embedded approach given the schedule
 for OWL.
 Peter acknowledges a possibility of success but also pessimistic.>

NEW/MODIFIED ACTION: Pat Hayes to update document, adding an appendix to
 point out the position that the semantics takes on these issues.


3.5 ISSUE 5.1: Uniform treatment of literal/data values
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/webont-issues.html#I5.1-Uniform-treatment-of-literal-data-values
See also message by chairs:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Sep/0008.html

- state of discussion
- actions to move forward
<This was touched on within agenda item 3.4>

3.6  ISSUE 5.19: Classes as instances
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/webont-issues.html#I5.19-Classes-as-instances
See also message by chairs:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Sep/0008.html

- state of discussion
- actions to move forward
<This was touched on within agenda item 3.4>

4) Comments on WDs (10 min, editors)

Summary and short discussion on comments received sofar on the three
WDs.

<This agenda item was not addressed due to time constraints.  
 Guus asks that authors summarize changes in an email to the list.>

NEW ACTION: Working draft authors to summarize changes in documents in
email to WOWG list.

5) AOB (0-5 min) 

CHAIR DECISION - ftf4 Document lock down date: 
  Documents for discussion at Bristol FTF to be in final form by
  the end of next week (noon EDT on Friday 27 September).
Received on Tuesday, 24 September 2002 17:10:12 GMT

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