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minutes: Webont 2001-11-12 teleconference (for review)

From: Dan Connolly <connolly@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 16:12:40 -0600
Message-ID: <3BF04958.3C38A67D@w3.org>
To: Jim Hendler <hendler@cs.umd.edu>
CC: www-webont-wg@w3.org
Jim Hendler wrote:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2001Nov/0043.html
> Date: Monday Nov 12

Attendance: 25 present

Y Jeremy Carroll, Hewlett Packard Company
Y Dan Connolly, W3C, Team contact 
Y Jonathan Dale, Fujitsu Limited
Y Mike Dean (invited expert)
Y Stefan Decker, Stanford
Y Tim Finin, University of Maryland MIND Laboratory
Y Nicholas Gibbins, University of Southampton
Y Jeff Heflin (invited expert)
Y James Hendler, Maryland Information and Network Dynamics Lab at the
University of Maryland (chair)
Y Ian Horrocks, Network Inference
Y Ruediger Klein, Daimler Chrysler Research and Technology 
Y Michael Kohlhase, German Research Center for Artificial Intelligence
(DFKI) Gmbh
Y Ora Lassila, Nokia
Y Deborah McGuinness, Stanford
Y Libby Miller, University of Bristol
Y Leo Obrst, MITRE
Y Peter Patel-Schneider, Lucent Technologies
Y Marwan Sabbouh, MITRE
Y Michael Smith, Electronic Data System (EDS)
Y Ned Smith, Intel Corporation
Y Lynn Stein, invited expert
Y Herman ter Horst, Philips Electronic N.V.
Y Lynne R. Thompson, Unisys Corporation
Y David Trastour, Hewlett Packard Company
Y Frank van Harmelen, Ibrow

Regets:

NR Oisen Hurley, Iona Technologies, Inc.
NR Guus Schreiber, Ibrow
NR Michael Sintek, German Research Center for Artificial Intelligence
(DFKI) Gmbh 
NR Warner ten Kate, Philips Electronic N.V.


> AGENDA
> The Agenda for this meeting is as follows. If you have additions to
> the agenda, please email them to the webont group list before the
> start of the teleconference.
> 
> 1) ACTION ITEM REVIEW - Jim H (2 min)
> 
> Completed actions:
>   ACTION DanC: announcement email to Rdf-logic, rdf-ig, rdf-rules
>   ACTION JimH: introduction email (and suggest people send a "who I am")
>   ACTION: DanC arrange bridge for: first phone call - Nov 12, 1500 EST
>   ACTION DanC - add Jim to WG chair list
>   ACTION - Jim H mail to invited experts with how to join
>   ACTION Jim - getting started email to WOW-G
>   ACTION DanC - Working Group list doesn't yet include webont (in the
> T&S/SW area)

so noted.

> Open actions:
>   ACTION JimH - "roundtrip" email or phone with all working group members

a few outstanding.

> 2) Administrivia - Jim H.  (~10 min)
>   Choice of scribe for this phone call.
>   Discussion of best time for future telecons (constraints and
> process, not discussion of particular times - that will happen
> through email)

week of 22 Nov is not likely.

stay tuned for news of next telcon sometime in the week of 26 Nov

ACTION JimH: request telcon schedule input. NOTE WELL: everyone respond
soon.

>    Discussion of first f2f - when, where, expectation issues.

NOTE WELL: first face-to-face meeting is scheduled for
 14/15 Jan 2002 in Murray Hill, NH, near Newark airport.

ACTION PeterPS: send request regarding non-US citizens getting into
Lucent.
(done: 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2001Nov/0061.html)



> 3) Introduction and Expectations - Dan Connolly (~20 min)
>   quick overview by Dan of what is expected of working group by when.
> Not a detailed process review (which will be presented on a later
> call).
>   quick overview by Dan of expectations on WG members - what you need
> to read, what you need to write, what you need to program
>   Group questions re: process/expectations


[no decisions/actions. see log for details]

> 4) Ontology - vision/goals; charter review - Jim Hendler (~20 min)
>   Discussion of ontologies on web, what WG is expected to do (and NOT
> do). Review of charter [1]
> [1] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/charter

[no decisions/actions. see log for details]

>   Group questions re: goals, charter.
> 
> 5) Open discussion: issues for group, needs of members, items for
> getting started - Jim H. moderate (20 min)

[no decisions/actions; see log for details.]



IRC log follows...
(taken from
http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/webont/2001-11-12.txt)

20:00:59 <JHendler> =========== telecon starts ===========
20:01:07 <Frankh> Frankh has joined #webont
20:01:09 <JosD> JosD has joined #webont
20:02:31 <DanC> wow... 17 on the phone, per
http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.html
20:02:33 <jdale> jdale has joined #webont
20:02:41 <jdale> hello
20:02:49 <DanC> * DanC joins
20:03:12 <nmg> hi jon - how's SF today?
20:03:23 <DanC> 12 Nov agenda:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2001Nov/0043.html
20:04:05 <jdale> pretty wet - very bad rain this morning
20:04:25 <dlm> and actually a little lightening and thunder - odd for sf
20:04:28 <jdale> not a good day to be driving - i saw at least 8
accidents on the 280
20:04:45 <jdale> seems to have calmed down a bit now
20:05:14 <las> las has joined #webont
20:05:39 <DanC> JimH: pls use the IRC channel for meeting business
(including getting the chair's attention, clarifying).
20:05:43 <dlm> dlm is now known as DeborahMcGuinness
20:05:54 <jdale> are we supposed to be phoning in, too?
20:06:01 <DeborahMcGuinness> yes
20:06:04 <jdale> ah
20:06:10 <jdale> so what's the IRC session for?
20:06:26 <DeborahMcGuinness> just for scribing and for clarification
20:06:36 <jdale> * jdale dials in
20:06:41 <timfinin> timfinin has joined #webont
20:07:26 <stefanjdecker> stefanjdecker has joined #webont
20:07:28 <ora> ora has joined #webont
20:08:26 <jdale> hi tim
20:09:31 <DanC> $ grep ^Y nov12telcon|wc
20:09:31 <DanC>      24     162    1186
20:09:48 <DanC> ===== Roll Call
20:09:59 <DanC> 24 present. (details to be provided @@)
20:10:28 <DanC> ===== Agenda review
20:11:40 <DanC> JimH: administrative: during discussion items, please
request the floor; the chair or discussion leader will give you the
floor
20:13:03 <DanC> +Ned Smith, Intel Corporation
20:14:39 <DanC> == Teleconference times.
20:14:52 <las> * las wonders what telecon frequency is expected to be
20:15:12 <DanC> JimH: we span something like 14 time zones; it's
unlikely we'll find something convenient to everyone.
20:15:31 <ora> * ora thinks once a week is typical
20:15:32 <DanC> DebM: we could perhaps alternate times
20:15:53 <stefanjdecker> stefanjdecker has quit
20:16:08 <DanC> ACTION JimH: request telcon schedule input. NOTE WELL:
everyone respond soon.
20:16:18 <DanC> == Face to face schedule
20:16:27 <DanC> JimH: PeterPS has offered to host 1st ftf
20:16:53 <DanC> PeterPS: murray hill near [??] airport. [... scribe
missed lots...]. trying to get a wireless net....
20:22:39 <irc.openprojects.net> Disconnected from irc.openprojects.net
(ERROR :Closing Link: logger_1[tatooine.ilrt.bris.ac.uk] by
niven.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for
logger_1[tatooine.ilrt.bris.ac.uk]))
20:23:02 <logger> logger has joined #webont
20:23:02 <asimov.openprojects.net> topic is: W3C WebOnt WG
(http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/)
20:23:02 <asimov.openprojects.net> Users on #webont: logger las jdale
JosD kohlhase Ian DeborahMcGuinness nmg pfps @JHendler @dajobe @DanC 
20:23:06 <las> current events DanC will try to keep w/in a week or two
of up to date
20:23:14 <las> telecon:  we're in, you're all here...
20:23:22 <stefanjdecker> stefanjdecker has joined #webont
20:23:33 <las> membership in the group never closes, anyone who joins
late has to get self up to speed, but you can always in principle join.
20:23:42 <las> JimH:  we are not actively seeking new members.
20:23:43 <ora> ora has joined #webont
20:23:51 <las> * las apologizes, her phone connection is going in and
out.
20:24:18 <las> schedule/milestones dates got out of synch between when
they were written and  now.
20:24:27 <las> jimh will update 
20:25:06 <las> recommendation is highest formal goal
20:25:18 <las> something i missed precedes recommendation
20:25:37 <las> candidate recommendation precedes that, has several
implementations.
20:25:56 <las> proposed rec is what i missed, and some wgs skip cand rec
and go straight to prop rec if they're really in order
20:26:07 <las> publish working drafts at least every 3 months
20:26:34 <las> when a significant body of work is done, danc will push
us to publish as a working draft
20:26:48 <las> we can  change working drafts, but as we go further along
we should try to change less.
20:27:02 <las> ian horrocks:  what constitutes an implementation wrt the
kind of thing we're looking at?
20:27:27 <DavidTrastour> DavidTrastour has joined #webont
20:27:32 <las> danC:  I hope we'll build test suites and tools, but
we'll have to talk about that as we go along
20:28:21 <las> note sched/milestones must be agreed upon with semantic
web coordination group; others are waiting for our resources (including
danc only committed for one year)
20:28:32 <las> membership:  pretty much everyone here has jumped through
the hoops.
20:28:53 <las> jimH:  if you  haven't send intro yet, please do so ASAP.
20:29:35 <las> danC:  intellectual property:  goal is to make sure that
anything we come up with is usable by entire web community.  there are
many ways to get there.
20:30:01 <las> could be that we need to get some more formal papers
signed for working draft/face to face.
20:30:17 <las> we're a large group, 40+, will need to figure out how to
be effective
20:30:45 <las> everything is published, we'll keep developer groups
active, anyone who doesn't need to be a member is welcome not to.
20:30:59 <las> JimH:  Please say more on what's expected in terms of
participation.
20:31:06 <las> DanC:  Charter says 1 day/week.
20:31:20 <las> We expect folks in wg to be developing test cases,
writing parts of document, ...
20:31:53 <las> If your roll is mostly to keep track of what's going on
and report to someone else, you probably don't need to be a member. 
Members are expected to do substantial technical development.
20:32:15 <las> History section including technical history....
20:32:42 <las> First item is process history, not technical background
(http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Process-20010719/)
20:33:05 <las> DanC's job is to keep us all aware of what parts we need
to know, but we're welcome to read whole thing.
20:33:51 <dajobe> dajobe has quit
20:33:54 <las> Quick runthrough of obligations that make us mutually
effective.
20:34:02 <las> (from process document)
20:34:46 <las> Art of consensus is supplemental, mostly aimed at chairs,
less "rules" and more guidelines (member confidential)
http://www.w3.org/Guide/
20:35:12 <las> editors will also need art of consensus, also f2f hosts.
20:35:30 <las> technical background docs
20:35:39 <las> crash course was airport exercise
20:35:46 <las> danc is compiling lessons learned
20:36:40 <las> uris are important technologies....all should read
referenced documents 
20:37:01 <las> xml is important and the soohoo document is highly
recommended
20:37:15 <las> xml namespaces; rdf; rdf schema.
20:37:25 <las> (all of the urls are on the webont home page)
20:37:35 <las> Missing from homepage:  Link to rdf validator.
20:38:01 <las> daml/daml+oil not a lot of pointers on the page....there
are other things that could be there:  daml ontology library, ....
20:38:41 <las> jimH:  I don't yet have write permission for the home
page.  i will try to prioritize.  You need some familiarity with all,
but may wind up with expertise in some.
20:38:45 <DanC> thanks for scribe-help, Lynn
20:38:56 <las> jimH:  everyone will need to know daml/daml+oil
20:39:07 <las> * las is wondering whether danc has stepped down, so she
can.
20:40:11 <DanC> JimH: if we recon Nov 2001 as our start date, ...
20:40:17 <las> Apologies to all, but I have a conflict and need to duck
out now....
20:40:35 <DanC> ... three months later is Jan 2002, just after our ftf.
20:40:56 <las> las has quit
20:40:59 <DanC> ... so we'll need to be ready to publish something soon
after our ftf; so we'll need to do significant preparation beforehand.
20:41:44 <DanC> ====
20:41:46 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/charter
20:42:06 <DanC> === 4) Ontology - vision/goals; charter review - Jim
Hendler (~20 min)
20:42:54 <Frankh> Frankh has joined #webont
20:43:16 <DanC> JimH: technical scope in the charter is up to date;
schedule stuff needs revision, but the technical scope is set.
20:44:28 <DanC> JimH: there was a lot of discussion of what the scope
should be; there's a spectrum that goes out to hard research problems;
if you've seen TimBL's layer cake, we fit in at the ontology layer.
20:44:34 <DanC> ... note we're not doing rules.
20:44:48 <DanC> [... more summary of the charter ...]
20:45:15 <libby> libby has joined #webont
20:46:58 <DanC> ... we expect that a formal semantics for this language
is necessary; we'll either maintiain the DAML+OIL
model-theoretic/axiomatic semantics or draft some other formal
semantics.
20:47:18 <JosD> TimBL's layer cake
http://www.w3.org/2000/Talks/1206-xml2k-tbl/slide10-0.html
20:47:32 <DanC> JimH: some background on DAML+OIL ...
20:48:55 <DanC> ... SHOE had a frames/rules flavor; OIL was based on
description-logic stuff...
20:49:37 <DanC> ... mixing in web technologies introduced a few
interesting issues...
20:50:25 <DanC> ... "The products of the WebONT group should not
presuppose any particular approach to
20:50:26 <DanC>      either ontology design or ontology use. In
addition, the language must support the
20:50:26 <DanC>      development and linking of ontologies together, in
a web-like manner. "
20:51:46 <DeborahMcGuinness> axiomatic semantics -
http://www.ksl.stanford.edu/people/dlm/daml-semantics/abstract-axiomatic-semantics.html
20:52:13 <DeborahMcGuinness> model theoretic semantics -
http://www.daml.org/2001/03/model-theoretic-semantics.html
20:53:32 <DanC> JimH: ... "maximum compatibility with XML and RDF
language conventions. " so we'll be working with RDF Core on things like
model theory, datatypes, etc.
20:54:30 <DanC> JimH: unlike groups like the "standard upper ontology"
group, we don't intend to standardize any particular base of knowledge,
but rather a language for expressing ontologies.
20:55:06 <DanC> ... e.g. if someone proposed "this is how time should be
represented..." that would be out of scope.
20:56:25 <DanC> ... out of scope: query rules, query language, Universal
Web Logics
20:56:49 <DanC> * DanC wonders who's asking
20:56:59 <DanC> NedS: how do you see DAML-S fitting in?
20:57:25 <DanC> JimH: I think we want to support that sort of work, but
DAML-S itself is out of scope.
20:57:53 <DanC> NedS: how about as an environment for testing etc?
20:58:36 <DanC> JimH: not sure about "environment"... but yes, we'll be
interested in their requirements w.r.t. expressing ontology.
20:59:00 <DanC> OraL: I participate in the DAML-S work, in case we need
a connection.
21:00:52 <DanC> JimH: we'll also be keeping track of other W3C working
groups as well as other groups like FIPA...
21:01:05 <DanC> JonD: I've been appointed representative from FIPA to
here.
21:01:20 <ora> ora has left #webont
21:01:56 <DanC> JimH: note also the European Union has issued a [...
scribe missed it.]
21:02:31 <DanC> ... semantic web initiative.
21:02:59 <DanC> [... more charter review...]
21:03:03 <DanC> "To be successful, we expect the Working Group to have
approximately 10 to 20 active principal
21:03:03 <DanC> members for its 12-month duration. "
21:03:08 <DanC> JimH: clearly we're past that.
21:03:23 <DanC> JimH: note well: "Any intellectual property essential to
implement specifications produced
21:03:23 <DanC> by this Activity must be available on a royalty-free
basis."
21:04:05 <DanC> ==== end of item 4
21:04:58 <DanC> FrankvH: it's been suggested to me that we collect
idiomatic expressions using an ontology language...
21:05:16 <DeborahMcGuinness>
http://www.ksl.stanford.edu/people/dlm/daml/modelingIssues.html
21:05:26 <DeborahMcGuinness> is what i put up to hold daml+oil modeling
issues
21:05:28 <DanC> ... use cases, as it were.
21:05:37 <DanC> DanC: yes, let's
21:07:05 <DanC> FrankvH: our charter says start at/near DAML+OIL... (a)
how about a crash-course? (b) let's pore over DAML+OIL in detail and see
what issues are there.
21:07:37 <DanC> JimH: ideally, we'd have a ftf presentation;
unfortunately, we can't wait 'till then...
21:07:48 <DanC> Ian: how about the walkthru?
21:08:22 <DanC> FrankvH: we could present the walkthru by phone...
[thinking out loud]
21:08:59 <DanC> IanH: I'm still not clear how we'd define an
implementation
21:09:32 <DanC> JeremyC: implementation is my main focus in
participation here... at HP, we have an RDF implementation, and we're
interesting in moving "up the stack"...
21:10:09 <DanC> ... for example, it would have Java classes that make it
straightforward to work with this language... perhaps including a DL [
description-logic ] reasoner.
21:10:13 <mdean> mdean has joined #webont
21:10:19 <mdean> mdean is now known as mdean_
21:10:21 <DanC> JonD: if we're [@@]
21:13:12 <DanC> DanC: [use cases->testing; RDF Core WG experience:
parser testing, entailment tests]
21:13:38 <DanC> DebM: I'm maintaining a "modelling issues" page...
http://www.ksl.stanford.edu/people/dlm/daml/modelingIssues.html
21:13:40 <pfps> if there is a question on the call, can we please get an
answer before going on to something else?
21:13:59 <DanC> * DanC didn't realize there was a question outstanding
21:14:23 <pfps> what counts as an implementation.
21:14:51 <DanC> did you get cut off?
21:16:05 <JosD> what counts as an implementation? supporting those test
cases... 
21:16:43 <DanC> PeterPS: I'm still interested to know what counts as an
implementation...
21:16:54 <DanC> DanC: note that this group will largely decide that
(with some review)
21:17:08 <DanC> PeterPS: so this group will do the "this implementaiton
is good enough" work?
21:17:17 <DanC> DanC: yes, mostly. (see also: new QA WG)
21:18:02 <DanC> JimH: it's not necessarily an integrated product...
could be a mix of tools and toolkits that counts as an implementation
21:18:44 <DanC> DanC: if we decide that's OK, that'll probably work. But
other groups (e.g. CSS) have decided that they want one piece (or 2
pieces) of widely-deployed software that passes all their tests.
21:19:12 <DanC> JeremyC: an important motivation for the implementation
requirement is to test that the spec is clear.
21:19:17 <DanC> [... missed other stuff...]
21:21:36 <DanC> DanC/JimH: let's do start collecting use cases:
real-world scenarios where "if it doesn't do this, I'm not happy"
21:22:17 <DanC> ====== next meeting
21:22:24 <DanC> week of 22 Nov is not likely.
21:22:45 <DanC> stay tuned for news of next telcon sometime in the week
of 26 Nov
21:23:00 <DanC> ====== ADJOURN.
21:23:22 <JosD> * JosD bye
21:23:39 <Ian> Ian has quit

-- 
Dan Connolly, W3C http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/
Received on Monday, 12 November 2001 17:13:27 GMT

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