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minutes: Webont 2001-11-12 teleconference (for review)

From: Dan Connolly <connolly@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 16:12:40 -0600
Message-ID: <3BF04958.3C38A67D@w3.org>
To: Jim Hendler <hendler@cs.umd.edu>
CC: www-webont-wg@w3.org
Jim Hendler wrote:
> Date: Monday Nov 12

Attendance: 25 present

Y Jeremy Carroll, Hewlett Packard Company
Y Dan Connolly, W3C, Team contact 
Y Jonathan Dale, Fujitsu Limited
Y Mike Dean (invited expert)
Y Stefan Decker, Stanford
Y Tim Finin, University of Maryland MIND Laboratory
Y Nicholas Gibbins, University of Southampton
Y Jeff Heflin (invited expert)
Y James Hendler, Maryland Information and Network Dynamics Lab at the
University of Maryland (chair)
Y Ian Horrocks, Network Inference
Y Ruediger Klein, Daimler Chrysler Research and Technology 
Y Michael Kohlhase, German Research Center for Artificial Intelligence
(DFKI) Gmbh
Y Ora Lassila, Nokia
Y Deborah McGuinness, Stanford
Y Libby Miller, University of Bristol
Y Leo Obrst, MITRE
Y Peter Patel-Schneider, Lucent Technologies
Y Marwan Sabbouh, MITRE
Y Michael Smith, Electronic Data System (EDS)
Y Ned Smith, Intel Corporation
Y Lynn Stein, invited expert
Y Herman ter Horst, Philips Electronic N.V.
Y Lynne R. Thompson, Unisys Corporation
Y David Trastour, Hewlett Packard Company
Y Frank van Harmelen, Ibrow


NR Oisen Hurley, Iona Technologies, Inc.
NR Guus Schreiber, Ibrow
NR Michael Sintek, German Research Center for Artificial Intelligence
(DFKI) Gmbh 
NR Warner ten Kate, Philips Electronic N.V.

> The Agenda for this meeting is as follows. If you have additions to
> the agenda, please email them to the webont group list before the
> start of the teleconference.
> 1) ACTION ITEM REVIEW - Jim H (2 min)
> Completed actions:
>   ACTION DanC: announcement email to Rdf-logic, rdf-ig, rdf-rules
>   ACTION JimH: introduction email (and suggest people send a "who I am")
>   ACTION: DanC arrange bridge for: first phone call - Nov 12, 1500 EST
>   ACTION DanC - add Jim to WG chair list
>   ACTION - Jim H mail to invited experts with how to join
>   ACTION Jim - getting started email to WOW-G
>   ACTION DanC - Working Group list doesn't yet include webont (in the
> T&S/SW area)

so noted.

> Open actions:
>   ACTION JimH - "roundtrip" email or phone with all working group members

a few outstanding.

> 2) Administrivia - Jim H.  (~10 min)
>   Choice of scribe for this phone call.
>   Discussion of best time for future telecons (constraints and
> process, not discussion of particular times - that will happen
> through email)

week of 22 Nov is not likely.

stay tuned for news of next telcon sometime in the week of 26 Nov

ACTION JimH: request telcon schedule input. NOTE WELL: everyone respond

>    Discussion of first f2f - when, where, expectation issues.

NOTE WELL: first face-to-face meeting is scheduled for
 14/15 Jan 2002 in Murray Hill, NH, near Newark airport.

ACTION PeterPS: send request regarding non-US citizens getting into

> 3) Introduction and Expectations - Dan Connolly (~20 min)
>   quick overview by Dan of what is expected of working group by when.
> Not a detailed process review (which will be presented on a later
> call).
>   quick overview by Dan of expectations on WG members - what you need
> to read, what you need to write, what you need to program
>   Group questions re: process/expectations

[no decisions/actions. see log for details]

> 4) Ontology - vision/goals; charter review - Jim Hendler (~20 min)
>   Discussion of ontologies on web, what WG is expected to do (and NOT
> do). Review of charter [1]
> [1] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/charter

[no decisions/actions. see log for details]

>   Group questions re: goals, charter.
> 5) Open discussion: issues for group, needs of members, items for
> getting started - Jim H. moderate (20 min)

[no decisions/actions; see log for details.]

IRC log follows...
(taken from

20:00:59 <JHendler> =========== telecon starts ===========
20:01:07 <Frankh> Frankh has joined #webont
20:01:09 <JosD> JosD has joined #webont
20:02:31 <DanC> wow... 17 on the phone, per
20:02:33 <jdale> jdale has joined #webont
20:02:41 <jdale> hello
20:02:49 <DanC> * DanC joins
20:03:12 <nmg> hi jon - how's SF today?
20:03:23 <DanC> 12 Nov agenda:
20:04:05 <jdale> pretty wet - very bad rain this morning
20:04:25 <dlm> and actually a little lightening and thunder - odd for sf
20:04:28 <jdale> not a good day to be driving - i saw at least 8
accidents on the 280
20:04:45 <jdale> seems to have calmed down a bit now
20:05:14 <las> las has joined #webont
20:05:39 <DanC> JimH: pls use the IRC channel for meeting business
(including getting the chair's attention, clarifying).
20:05:43 <dlm> dlm is now known as DeborahMcGuinness
20:05:54 <jdale> are we supposed to be phoning in, too?
20:06:01 <DeborahMcGuinness> yes
20:06:04 <jdale> ah
20:06:10 <jdale> so what's the IRC session for?
20:06:26 <DeborahMcGuinness> just for scribing and for clarification
20:06:36 <jdale> * jdale dials in
20:06:41 <timfinin> timfinin has joined #webont
20:07:26 <stefanjdecker> stefanjdecker has joined #webont
20:07:28 <ora> ora has joined #webont
20:08:26 <jdale> hi tim
20:09:31 <DanC> $ grep ^Y nov12telcon|wc
20:09:31 <DanC>      24     162    1186
20:09:48 <DanC> ===== Roll Call
20:09:59 <DanC> 24 present. (details to be provided @@)
20:10:28 <DanC> ===== Agenda review
20:11:40 <DanC> JimH: administrative: during discussion items, please
request the floor; the chair or discussion leader will give you the
20:13:03 <DanC> +Ned Smith, Intel Corporation
20:14:39 <DanC> == Teleconference times.
20:14:52 <las> * las wonders what telecon frequency is expected to be
20:15:12 <DanC> JimH: we span something like 14 time zones; it's
unlikely we'll find something convenient to everyone.
20:15:31 <ora> * ora thinks once a week is typical
20:15:32 <DanC> DebM: we could perhaps alternate times
20:15:53 <stefanjdecker> stefanjdecker has quit
20:16:08 <DanC> ACTION JimH: request telcon schedule input. NOTE WELL:
everyone respond soon.
20:16:18 <DanC> == Face to face schedule
20:16:27 <DanC> JimH: PeterPS has offered to host 1st ftf
20:16:53 <DanC> PeterPS: murray hill near [??] airport. [... scribe
missed lots...]. trying to get a wireless net....
20:22:39 <irc.openprojects.net> Disconnected from irc.openprojects.net
(ERROR :Closing Link: logger_1[tatooine.ilrt.bris.ac.uk] by
niven.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for
20:23:02 <logger> logger has joined #webont
20:23:02 <asimov.openprojects.net> topic is: W3C WebOnt WG
20:23:02 <asimov.openprojects.net> Users on #webont: logger las jdale
JosD kohlhase Ian DeborahMcGuinness nmg pfps @JHendler @dajobe @DanC 
20:23:06 <las> current events DanC will try to keep w/in a week or two
of up to date
20:23:14 <las> telecon:  we're in, you're all here...
20:23:22 <stefanjdecker> stefanjdecker has joined #webont
20:23:33 <las> membership in the group never closes, anyone who joins
late has to get self up to speed, but you can always in principle join.
20:23:42 <las> JimH:  we are not actively seeking new members.
20:23:43 <ora> ora has joined #webont
20:23:51 <las> * las apologizes, her phone connection is going in and
20:24:18 <las> schedule/milestones dates got out of synch between when
they were written and  now.
20:24:27 <las> jimh will update 
20:25:06 <las> recommendation is highest formal goal
20:25:18 <las> something i missed precedes recommendation
20:25:37 <las> candidate recommendation precedes that, has several
20:25:56 <las> proposed rec is what i missed, and some wgs skip cand rec
and go straight to prop rec if they're really in order
20:26:07 <las> publish working drafts at least every 3 months
20:26:34 <las> when a significant body of work is done, danc will push
us to publish as a working draft
20:26:48 <las> we can  change working drafts, but as we go further along
we should try to change less.
20:27:02 <las> ian horrocks:  what constitutes an implementation wrt the
kind of thing we're looking at?
20:27:27 <DavidTrastour> DavidTrastour has joined #webont
20:27:32 <las> danC:  I hope we'll build test suites and tools, but
we'll have to talk about that as we go along
20:28:21 <las> note sched/milestones must be agreed upon with semantic
web coordination group; others are waiting for our resources (including
danc only committed for one year)
20:28:32 <las> membership:  pretty much everyone here has jumped through
the hoops.
20:28:53 <las> jimH:  if you  haven't send intro yet, please do so ASAP.
20:29:35 <las> danC:  intellectual property:  goal is to make sure that
anything we come up with is usable by entire web community.  there are
many ways to get there.
20:30:01 <las> could be that we need to get some more formal papers
signed for working draft/face to face.
20:30:17 <las> we're a large group, 40+, will need to figure out how to
be effective
20:30:45 <las> everything is published, we'll keep developer groups
active, anyone who doesn't need to be a member is welcome not to.
20:30:59 <las> JimH:  Please say more on what's expected in terms of
20:31:06 <las> DanC:  Charter says 1 day/week.
20:31:20 <las> We expect folks in wg to be developing test cases,
writing parts of document, ...
20:31:53 <las> If your roll is mostly to keep track of what's going on
and report to someone else, you probably don't need to be a member. 
Members are expected to do substantial technical development.
20:32:15 <las> History section including technical history....
20:32:42 <las> First item is process history, not technical background
20:33:05 <las> DanC's job is to keep us all aware of what parts we need
to know, but we're welcome to read whole thing.
20:33:51 <dajobe> dajobe has quit
20:33:54 <las> Quick runthrough of obligations that make us mutually
20:34:02 <las> (from process document)
20:34:46 <las> Art of consensus is supplemental, mostly aimed at chairs,
less "rules" and more guidelines (member confidential)
20:35:12 <las> editors will also need art of consensus, also f2f hosts.
20:35:30 <las> technical background docs
20:35:39 <las> crash course was airport exercise
20:35:46 <las> danc is compiling lessons learned
20:36:40 <las> uris are important technologies....all should read
referenced documents 
20:37:01 <las> xml is important and the soohoo document is highly
20:37:15 <las> xml namespaces; rdf; rdf schema.
20:37:25 <las> (all of the urls are on the webont home page)
20:37:35 <las> Missing from homepage:  Link to rdf validator.
20:38:01 <las> daml/daml+oil not a lot of pointers on the page....there
are other things that could be there:  daml ontology library, ....
20:38:41 <las> jimH:  I don't yet have write permission for the home
page.  i will try to prioritize.  You need some familiarity with all,
but may wind up with expertise in some.
20:38:45 <DanC> thanks for scribe-help, Lynn
20:38:56 <las> jimH:  everyone will need to know daml/daml+oil
20:39:07 <las> * las is wondering whether danc has stepped down, so she
20:40:11 <DanC> JimH: if we recon Nov 2001 as our start date, ...
20:40:17 <las> Apologies to all, but I have a conflict and need to duck
out now....
20:40:35 <DanC> ... three months later is Jan 2002, just after our ftf.
20:40:56 <las> las has quit
20:40:59 <DanC> ... so we'll need to be ready to publish something soon
after our ftf; so we'll need to do significant preparation beforehand.
20:41:44 <DanC> ====
20:41:46 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/charter
20:42:06 <DanC> === 4) Ontology - vision/goals; charter review - Jim
Hendler (~20 min)
20:42:54 <Frankh> Frankh has joined #webont
20:43:16 <DanC> JimH: technical scope in the charter is up to date;
schedule stuff needs revision, but the technical scope is set.
20:44:28 <DanC> JimH: there was a lot of discussion of what the scope
should be; there's a spectrum that goes out to hard research problems;
if you've seen TimBL's layer cake, we fit in at the ontology layer.
20:44:34 <DanC> ... note we're not doing rules.
20:44:48 <DanC> [... more summary of the charter ...]
20:45:15 <libby> libby has joined #webont
20:46:58 <DanC> ... we expect that a formal semantics for this language
is necessary; we'll either maintiain the DAML+OIL
model-theoretic/axiomatic semantics or draft some other formal
20:47:18 <JosD> TimBL's layer cake
20:47:32 <DanC> JimH: some background on DAML+OIL ...
20:48:55 <DanC> ... SHOE had a frames/rules flavor; OIL was based on
description-logic stuff...
20:49:37 <DanC> ... mixing in web technologies introduced a few
interesting issues...
20:50:25 <DanC> ... "The products of the WebONT group should not
presuppose any particular approach to
20:50:26 <DanC>      either ontology design or ontology use. In
addition, the language must support the
20:50:26 <DanC>      development and linking of ontologies together, in
a web-like manner. "
20:51:46 <DeborahMcGuinness> axiomatic semantics -
20:52:13 <DeborahMcGuinness> model theoretic semantics -
20:53:32 <DanC> JimH: ... "maximum compatibility with XML and RDF
language conventions. " so we'll be working with RDF Core on things like
model theory, datatypes, etc.
20:54:30 <DanC> JimH: unlike groups like the "standard upper ontology"
group, we don't intend to standardize any particular base of knowledge,
but rather a language for expressing ontologies.
20:55:06 <DanC> ... e.g. if someone proposed "this is how time should be
represented..." that would be out of scope.
20:56:25 <DanC> ... out of scope: query rules, query language, Universal
Web Logics
20:56:49 <DanC> * DanC wonders who's asking
20:56:59 <DanC> NedS: how do you see DAML-S fitting in?
20:57:25 <DanC> JimH: I think we want to support that sort of work, but
DAML-S itself is out of scope.
20:57:53 <DanC> NedS: how about as an environment for testing etc?
20:58:36 <DanC> JimH: not sure about "environment"... but yes, we'll be
interested in their requirements w.r.t. expressing ontology.
20:59:00 <DanC> OraL: I participate in the DAML-S work, in case we need
a connection.
21:00:52 <DanC> JimH: we'll also be keeping track of other W3C working
groups as well as other groups like FIPA...
21:01:05 <DanC> JonD: I've been appointed representative from FIPA to
21:01:20 <ora> ora has left #webont
21:01:56 <DanC> JimH: note also the European Union has issued a [...
scribe missed it.]
21:02:31 <DanC> ... semantic web initiative.
21:02:59 <DanC> [... more charter review...]
21:03:03 <DanC> "To be successful, we expect the Working Group to have
approximately 10 to 20 active principal
21:03:03 <DanC> members for its 12-month duration. "
21:03:08 <DanC> JimH: clearly we're past that.
21:03:23 <DanC> JimH: note well: "Any intellectual property essential to
implement specifications produced
21:03:23 <DanC> by this Activity must be available on a royalty-free
21:04:05 <DanC> ==== end of item 4
21:04:58 <DanC> FrankvH: it's been suggested to me that we collect
idiomatic expressions using an ontology language...
21:05:16 <DeborahMcGuinness>
21:05:26 <DeborahMcGuinness> is what i put up to hold daml+oil modeling
21:05:28 <DanC> ... use cases, as it were.
21:05:37 <DanC> DanC: yes, let's
21:07:05 <DanC> FrankvH: our charter says start at/near DAML+OIL... (a)
how about a crash-course? (b) let's pore over DAML+OIL in detail and see
what issues are there.
21:07:37 <DanC> JimH: ideally, we'd have a ftf presentation;
unfortunately, we can't wait 'till then...
21:07:48 <DanC> Ian: how about the walkthru?
21:08:22 <DanC> FrankvH: we could present the walkthru by phone...
[thinking out loud]
21:08:59 <DanC> IanH: I'm still not clear how we'd define an
21:09:32 <DanC> JeremyC: implementation is my main focus in
participation here... at HP, we have an RDF implementation, and we're
interesting in moving "up the stack"...
21:10:09 <DanC> ... for example, it would have Java classes that make it
straightforward to work with this language... perhaps including a DL [
description-logic ] reasoner.
21:10:13 <mdean> mdean has joined #webont
21:10:19 <mdean> mdean is now known as mdean_
21:10:21 <DanC> JonD: if we're [@@]
21:13:12 <DanC> DanC: [use cases->testing; RDF Core WG experience:
parser testing, entailment tests]
21:13:38 <DanC> DebM: I'm maintaining a "modelling issues" page...
21:13:40 <pfps> if there is a question on the call, can we please get an
answer before going on to something else?
21:13:59 <DanC> * DanC didn't realize there was a question outstanding
21:14:23 <pfps> what counts as an implementation.
21:14:51 <DanC> did you get cut off?
21:16:05 <JosD> what counts as an implementation? supporting those test
21:16:43 <DanC> PeterPS: I'm still interested to know what counts as an
21:16:54 <DanC> DanC: note that this group will largely decide that
(with some review)
21:17:08 <DanC> PeterPS: so this group will do the "this implementaiton
is good enough" work?
21:17:17 <DanC> DanC: yes, mostly. (see also: new QA WG)
21:18:02 <DanC> JimH: it's not necessarily an integrated product...
could be a mix of tools and toolkits that counts as an implementation
21:18:44 <DanC> DanC: if we decide that's OK, that'll probably work. But
other groups (e.g. CSS) have decided that they want one piece (or 2
pieces) of widely-deployed software that passes all their tests.
21:19:12 <DanC> JeremyC: an important motivation for the implementation
requirement is to test that the spec is clear.
21:19:17 <DanC> [... missed other stuff...]
21:21:36 <DanC> DanC/JimH: let's do start collecting use cases:
real-world scenarios where "if it doesn't do this, I'm not happy"
21:22:17 <DanC> ====== next meeting
21:22:24 <DanC> week of 22 Nov is not likely.
21:22:45 <DanC> stay tuned for news of next telcon sometime in the week
of 26 Nov
21:23:00 <DanC> ====== ADJOURN.
21:23:22 <JosD> * JosD bye
21:23:39 <Ian> Ian has quit

Dan Connolly, W3C http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/
Received on Monday, 12 November 2001 17:13:27 UTC

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