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Meeting Minutes SVG WG from 2012/05/31

From: Dirk Schulze <dschulze@adobe.com>
Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 15:37:56 -0700
To: SVG public list <www-svg@w3.org>
CC: "w3c-svg-wg@w3.org" <w3c-svg-wg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <5F6DC54D-033A-4263-9288-9800DE25179E@adobe.com>
Hi,

Here are the meeting minutes of 2012/05/31 of the SVG WG: http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-svg-minutes.html

Greetings,
Dirk


   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

                    SVG Working Group Teleconference

31 May 2012

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0067.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-svg-irc

Attendees

   Present
   Regrets
   Chair
          SV_MEETING_CHAIR

   Scribe
          krit

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]SVG 2 update
         2. [6]seattle/paris F2F
         3. [7]SVG 2 styling
         4. [8]should we remove
            glyph-orientation-{horizontal,vertical}?
         5. [9]Remove glyph orientation vertical and horrizontal
         6. [10]should we remove
            glyph-orientation-{horizontal,vertical}?
         7. [11]Removing kerning property in favour for
            font-kerning
         8. [12]Should opacity property apply to markers
         9. [13]Meaning of overflow: auto for SVG elements
        10. [14]overflow-x/overfllow-y
     * [15]Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________

   <trackbot> Date: 31 May 2012

   scribenick krit

   <heycam> scribenick: krit

SVG 2 update

   ed: when do we publish first draft

   heycam: july

   ed: a lot of edits are not in the spec yet
   ... get the tings into the spec that you assigned for

   <ed>
   [16]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Co
   mmitments

     [16] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Commitments

   heycam: more actual spec edits

   ed: I did some edits
   ... like text-overflow
   ... I went through my actions and am working on some edits, but
   they are not yet ready to be committed
   ... any updates to discuss?

   cyril: can we have a link to the chapter where the edits were
   made?

   ed: on the wiki?

   cyril: yes, a link on the wiki to the change on the spec
   ... it could help

   Tav: it could move

   cyril: e.g z-index, where is it?

   Tav: I don't remeber :)

   cyril: found i

   t

   Tav: might be good to have a link

   krit: Question, what styling on element definition?

   heycam: have not tried the lrecently one

   Tav: as a proposal, a table seems to be ok
   ... problems with table might be semantcis, but that is ok and
   can be fixed later
   ... SVG 1.1 has certain IDs that are used
   ... but there seems no trouble to switch to heycam proposal
   without it

   heycam: yes i think that is ok

   Tav: me too

   heycam: you are aksing because of edits that you are doing?

   krit: yes, I would like to have a style at the beginning

   heycam: can be changed later easily

   Tav: yes

   heycam: I finished most of marker stuff
   ... I am not happy about the 2nd part of the marker spec, but
   it can be discussed on the list

   cyril: I reviewed marker and have a list of changes, send it
   tomorrow to the list

   Tav: everyone is interessted on it, so it might be better

   cyril: I mean public list or wg list

   <cyril> we should use www-svg for technical discussion

   heycam: we should use www-svg

   general agreement to www-svg

   ed: next topic

seattle/paris F2F

   cyril: I made tests with Alan in Seattle
   ... he just used desktop client, we the equipment
   ... it worked
   ... the adobe equipment could work as well
   ... we have to confirm that the meeting are done as discussed

   <heycam>
   [17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJu
   n/0063.html

     [17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0063.html

   cyril: I think the time slots of cameron are fine

   Tav: will we be able to call in?
   ... maybe i can go to seattle with the help of inkscape
   ... (small chance)

   cyril: I thought it would be helpful for people from europe

   Tav: yeah, but am not in paris at that time

   ed: I would come

   cyril: jwatt?

   heycam: unlikely

   cyril: who else would come to paris?
   ... so far we have 3?
   ... Is it worth to have a meeting in paris for just three?
   rooms are empty anyway
   ... we have polycom equ. so we have everything for video
   conference
   ... fine if we are just 3?

   ed: yes

   krit: did all people already assigned so far?

   cyril: 9 so far
   ... doug is not

   krit: I'll take car of hotel opertunities for seattle

   heycam: time is good. We can publish WD a couple of days later

   resolve: We go with the proposed time slots, meeting split to
   Seattle and Paris

   resolution: We go with the proposed time slots, meeting split
   to Seattle and Paris

SVG 2 styling

   <ed>
   [18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJu
   n/0057.html

     [18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0057.html

   krit: I just was not happy about the red color on elements
   ... continue with smaller and bold text for attributes and
   elements

   heycam: I am fine if there are solutions that make it better
   ... list of quted attribute or element list might look scarry

   krit: do you have an example?

   heycam: try to get an example?

   <heycam>
   [19]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/shapes.html#RectElement --
   click the "show" next to "presentation attributes"

     [19] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/shapes.html#RectElement

   krit: looks ok for me
   ... quotes are inside of links on attributes and elements, but
   outside for properties

   heycam: I try to change it and look how it looks liek

   Tav: heycam: but it is good as it is

   <heycam>
   [20]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/pservers.html#MeshGradients
   has an example of this note

     [20] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/pservers.html#MeshGradients

   krit: current style looks great, will we have the same style on
   WD?

   heycam: yes, with exception of background
   ... for WD, do we want to publish it without background colors?

   <ed>
   [21]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/text.html#TextOverflowProcessi
   ng

     [21] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/text.html#TextOverflowProcessing

   krit: I think so, yes

   ed: that is fine for me
   ... yellow background should be reviewable text

   krit: but do we want to have backgrounds on WD at all?

   heycam: might be ok to have different styles for publishing WD
   ... we don't want to have annotations either

   krit: property and attributes have different blueish colors

   heycam: yes, planned

   krit: what for presentation attributes, should they be the
   attribute blue, or property blue?

   heycam: they should have the attribute blue

   <heycam>
   [22]https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/attindex.html#PresentationAttr
   ibutes

     [22] https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/attindex.html#PresentationAttributes

   krit: at the moement spec is not talking about presentation
   attr, but about the property, does this change for current
   attributes that move to presentation attributes as well?

   heycam: they might later, yes

   ed: next topic

   <ed>
   [23]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012May/0100.ht
   ml

     [23] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012May/0100.html

should we remove glyph-orientation-{horizontal,vertical}?

Remove glyph orientation vertical and horrizontal

should we remove glyph-orientation-{horizontal,vertical}?

   heycam: In CSS3 it will be a text orientation property
   ... it is not in gecko, but in opera and webkit
   ... is it ok to remove it yet?
   ... the current writing mode spec has some possibility to use
   the SVG orientation property
   ... so should this spec still have that? is it necessary?

   Tav: we might be the wrong people to ask

   heycam: since CSS has it, do we need it in SVG? Do we want to
   continue with CSS?

   krit: does CSS has angles for text orientation?

   heycam: might be limited
   ... but angle on SVG must be a multiple of 90deg

   <heycam>
   [24]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-writing-modes/#text-orientatio
   n0

     [24] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-writing-modes/#text-orientation0

   krit: upside down text is not possible for CSS

   heycam: yes
   ... not sure about vertical text implementations

   Tav: inkscape has it

   krit: webkit as well

   ed: opera has some support for it

   heycam: Iam aslo happy to keep it in the spec

   <ed>
   [25]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/text.html#GlyphOrientationHorizo
   ntalProperty

     [25] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/text.html#GlyphOrientationHorizontalProperty

   nikos: Is it already deprecated?

   heycam: I think so
   ... maybe not
   ... if people are confortale enough we can remove it.
   ... or first deprecating?

   Tav: I don't know

   nikos: we need feedback from japan first

   ed: doe we have an action for someone?

   heycam: yes

   <scribe> ACTION: heycam will look into how removing
   GlyphOrientationHorizontalProperty would influence the web
   [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-svg-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-3299 - Will look into how removing
   GlyphOrientationHorizontalProperty would influence the web [on
   Cameron McCormack - due 2012-06-07].

Removing kerning property in favour for font-kerning

   <ed>
   [27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012May/0101.ht
   ml

     [27] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012May/0101.html

   <heycam> letter-spacing

   heycam: only webkit implements kerning
   ... it gives posibility to override kerning of font
   ... and turn off automatical kerning
   ... font-kerning can turn on and off automatic kenring\
   ... you could get all functionality of kerning with turn off
   kerning with font-kerining and letter-spacing
   ... do we want to remove duplicated behavior?

   ed: I think so

   krit: the quetion is if authors can still rely on specs, if we
   remove parts that are specified later.

   heycam: if implementations haven't picked up things, we are in
   a lucky position that we still can change behavior

   ed: on the other hand kerning is more doing letter-spacing, so
   it is not doing what it suposed to

   heycam: I was able to find 5examples where kerning was used

   krit: is it already deprecated?

   heycam: it is not

   krit: At least we can agree to deprecate it

   heycam: as longer it remains on the spec, as more likely it
   will be used
   ... my preference is to remove it

   krit: I don't have a strong feeling

   ed: any objections to remove it?

   resolution: remove kerning from spec
   ... remove kerning property from SVG spec

   Tav: we should note that it got removed and how to get the same
   behavior?

   heycam: good idea

   <scribe> ACTION: heycam remove kerning and mention to use
   font-kerning and letter-spacing instead [recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-svg-minutes.html#action02]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-3300 - Remove kerning and mention to
   use font-kerning and letter-spacing instead [on Cameron
   McCormack - due 2012-06-07].

Should opacity property apply to markers

   krit: does spec disallow it?

   heycam: no
   ... question is from implementations point of view

   krit: would be more interessting to have marker and stroke as
   one piece

   <ed> so this is talking about <marker
   opacity="0.5">...</marker>, right?

   heycam: I know what you mean, could be interessting

   <heycam> ed, yes

   Tav: we could use the new keywords

   krit: that wouldn't solve the problem that you see that they
   are not one piece

   nikos: that is something the nec compositing spec can help
   with, let me find a link

   krit: the spec does allow opacity on markers, so you are asking
   for disallowing it explicitly?

   <nikos> if they're in a knock-out group it would solve the
   problem of the stroke and the marker looking like different
   objects

   <nikos>
   [29]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/rawfile/tip/compositing/index.h
   tml

     [29] https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/rawfile/tip/compositing/index.html

   <nikos> section 8.3 I think you were referring to Cam

   heycam: not really. Just wanted to discuss it, was not aware
   that it is allowed at that point

   nikos: was added by rik, and he propably want to work more on
   it

   heycam: looks like we can get the behavior that dirk wants

   krit: well, we were asked about it on webkit

   (talks about marker and stroke being one unit)

   ed: sounds reasonable

   <heycam> ISSUE: consider allowing stroke and markers to be
   rendered as one unit wrt opacity

   <trackbot> Created ISSUE-2443 - Consider allowing stroke and
   markers to be rendered as one unit wrt opacity ; please
   complete additional details at
   [30]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2443/edit .

     [30] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2443/edit

   <g opacity="0.5"><line marker="url()"></g>

   <heycam> ISSUE-2443: Maybe the Compositing spec will allow
   this.

   <trackbot> ISSUE-2443 Consider allowing stroke and markers to
   be rendered as one unit wrt opacity notes added

   ed: next topic?

Meaning of overflow: auto for SVG elements

   krit: is it about overflow-x/-y

   heycam: related
   ... in CSS it means scrollbars if if affects a bigger region
   ... in SVG means the same as visible
   ... auto means in CSS never paint outside the bix, while in SVG
   always outside the box
   ... proposal: change behavior to CSS described behavior
   ... the current behavior of gecko

   ed: might cause more clipping and perf lost on SVG

   heycam: auto is not the default value

   ed: true, hm not sure

   krit: I would agree heycam because of consitence with cSS spec

   ed: I am not sure if the CSS definition even applies to SVG
   since there's no scrolling in svg

   heycam: For me it is more about scrolling
   ... in HTML content it will clip to the content
   ... no scrollbars
   ... so it is more like hidden invisible
   ... overflow: scroll means the same a overflow: hidden in SVG

   ed: I think heycam arguments are good

   <ed> I'd agree that auto is more similar to scroll, which in
   svg is the same as hidden

   heycam: anyone against changing defintion of overflow: auto

   resolution: Accept the proposal of heycam to go the CSS way for
   overflow: auto

   <scribe> ACTION: heycam will change behavior to CSS way for
   overflow: auto [recorded in
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-svg-minutes.html#action03]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-3301 - Will change behavior to CSS
   way for overflow: auto [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-06-07].

overflow-x/overfllow-y

   <ed>
   [32]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012May/0094.ht
   ml

     [32] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012May/0094.html

   heycam: should both apply the same way like for HTML
   ... don't see any reason why we shouldn't do that

   krit: think it can be a benefit for authors

   ed: it is not more confusing than having CSS Transforms on box
   ....
   ... what is the usecase in SVG?

   krit: different clipping behvairo

   heycam: how is it done on webkit?

   krit: not fully sure

   <ed>
   [33]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012May/att-009
   5/o.svg

     [33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012May/att-0095/o.svg

   heycam: anyway, implementations are different now

   krit: any conclusion?

   ed: we should at least define what it should do
   ... would like to see more usecases, but it might make sense

   <scribe> ACTION: heycam will work on usecases for overflow-x/-y
   [recorded in
   [34]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-svg-minutes.html#action04]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-3302 - Will work on usecases for
   overflow-x/-y [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-06-07].

   RRSAgent: make minutes

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: heycam remove kerning and mention to use
   font-kerning and letter-spacing instead [recorded in
   [35]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-svg-minutes.html#action02]
   [NEW] ACTION: heycam will change behavior to CSS way for
   overflow: auto [recorded in
   [36]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-svg-minutes.html#action03]
   [NEW] ACTION: heycam will look into how removing
   GlyphOrientationHorizontalProperty would influence the web
   [recorded in
   [37]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-svg-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: heycam will work on usecases for overflow-x/-y
   [recorded in
   [38]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-svg-minutes.html#action04]

   [End of minutes]
     __________________________________________________________


    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [39]scribe.perl version
    1.136 ( [40]CVS log)
    $Date: 2012/05/31 22:34:55 $
     __________________________________________________________

     [39] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
     [40] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

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     [41] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/I get throw my actions but did not commit yet/I went throu
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Succeeded: s/heycam/    cyril/
Succeeded: s/heycam/cyril/
Succeeded: s/??/nikos/
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Found ScribeNick: krit
Inferring Scribes: krit

WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: Doug_Schepers ISSUE ISSUE-2443 P20 P21 P25 Tav aaaa c
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You can indicate people for the Present list like this:
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Agenda:
[42]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0067.h
tml

     [42] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012AprJun/0067.html

WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Found Date: 31 May 2012
Guessing minutes URL:
[43]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: behavior change heycam kerning mention remove
 will

     [43] http://www.w3.org/2012/05/31-svg-minutes.html

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.



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