W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-svg@w3.org > November 2002

Re: Identical rendering? [was Re: SVG 1.2 General feedback]

From: Vadim Plessky <plessky@cnt.ru>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:36:42 +0300
To: Thomas E Deweese <thomas.deweese@kodak.com>
Cc: www-svg@w3.org
Message-Id: <200211201832.43570.plessky@cnt.ru>

On Wednesday 20 November 2002 5:11 pm, Thomas E Deweese wrote:
|  >>>>> "TR" == Tobias Reif <tobiasreif@pinkjuice.com> writes:
|  >>
|  >> In a short: I stopped using TTF fonts about year ago, and actively
|  >> promote usage of PostScript Type1 (or Type2/CFF) fonts.
|
|     Any particular reason why?

Here they are:
*  Apple holds few patents on some aspects of TrueType hinting.
Check htttp://www.freetype.org for details, you need Patents page
So, even while FreeType project implemented complete TrueType Bytecode 
Interpreter, Linux distributions (Mandrake, RedHat, SuSE) have to *disable* 
TT Bytecode interpreter in their distributions/binaries.
So, you can't get  TrueType fonts working on Linux "as is", at least in US 
where Apple holds patents.

* TrueType outlines has lower quality than PS Type1 outlines (bigger number of 
control points, larger font sizes, etc.)

* TrueType hinting model is terrible, it's just like programming in assembler 
when other people program in C or C++ or Modual-2.
And as I develop fonts (not released yet), I need to hint them.
Hinting font in TrueType hinting model is *out of question* for me, as an 
individual.
I have heard than Microsoft has people working on *hinting only*, and Times 
New Roman required around 2 years to hint.  I just don't have so much free 
time, or such mighty sponsor.
Microsoft recently removed WebFont from their site (as they were concerned 
about Linux users using those fonts), so question of good fonts for Linux 
Desktop is more practical nowdays than ever.

* TrueType font, when printed (on Linux), is converted to PostScript anyway.
So, having your font in PS Type1 format from the beginning, you exclude this 
conversion.

* TrueType hinting model was designed with monochrome rendering in mind, 
nobody was thinking about anti-aliased rendering at that time.
PostScript hinting model and anti-aliasing just complement each other.

Hope this helps!..

|
|  >> But thanks for this reference, may be one day I would install Batik
|  >> and try this.  Does it convert TrueType hints (opcodes) to SVG,
|  >> too?
|
|     SVG fonts have no notion of font hinting. None - zip - zilch -
|  zero.  Yes, it is clear that this makes them almost useless for small
|  font sizes.  On the up side most SVG viewers do use anti-aliasing for
|  rendering text, while this certainly does not solve the problem it
|  helps.
|
|     I don't think the SVG WG is likely to add font hinting to SVG fonts
|  - my impression is that one must step very carefully here to avoid a
|  minefield of patents.

I had impression that there is an understanding of HStem and Vstem in W3C 
standards (at least it's in CSS3).
And someone told me that SVG fonts canbe hinted in Adobe's PS model (Adobe CFF 
format, or Type2 fonts)

|
|  >> I still should to learn *why* you may want to have filters or
|  >> animations inside *font*.
|
|  TR> Fancy splash screens, film credits over SMIL flicks etc etc. The
|  TR> idea is not to use animated etc glyphs for regular text, but to
|  TR> make fancy logos, designs, styles (thing graffiti) etc accessible,
|  TR> and platform independent.
|
|      There are lots of 'art' fonts that would look _much_ better if
|  they could use color.  You could then have real 'illuminated' fonts,
|  etc.

I think 3D (in particular, OpenGL) is much better for *illuminated objects*, 
etc.
Apple recently introduced Quartz Extreme, which combines Display PDF and 
OpenGL API.  Sounds interesting, IMO.


[...]
|  >> | Use the renderung related properties to make small text readable.
|  >>
|  >> Do you mean, "hints"?
|
|  TR> Why don't you simply play with the text rendering properties in
|  TR> SVG to solve your problem?
|
|      I think 'hint' is getting over used here, There is a family of
|  'rendering hints' (section 11.7) that you can set on elements in SVG -
|  like text-rendering="optimizeLegibility" - that renderers can use to
|  know what the author intends for the text - for a large Corporate logo
|  you probably want anti-aliasing etc, for the 'fine-print' you probably
|  want font-hinting with no anti-aliasing.  These properties allow
|  content authors to inform the renderer what is appropriate.
|
|      Just so it is clear SVG isn't aiming to replace HTML - where text
|  is king, it is trying to provide a format where vector graphics and
|  text and raster images play a more balanced role.

But SVG can be used as *final distribution* format for documents, no?
I SVG can replace closed PDF at some moment.
What we need for this is good, fast SVG renderer, and necessary support for 
printers (drivers).
I can think CUPS can be a good start for this.
We just need replace PS with SVG, and GhostScript with good SVG renderer.

-- 
Best Regards,

Vadim Plessky
SVG Icons
http://svgicons.sourceforge.net
Received on Wednesday, 20 November 2002 10:50:47 GMT

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