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Re: accessible banking:

From: david poehlman <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 22:09:14 -0500
Message-ID: <000901c508d4$9539cf90$6401a8c0@DAVIDPC>
To: "Access Systems" <accessys@smart.net>, "Kelly Pierce" <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>
Cc: <Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com>, <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>, <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>

There is an increasing number of shops with jobs in server admin and many of 
them are unix/linux based and yes, they can use lynx.  It is actually easier 
to do some of these jobs in a command line/text based environment than a 
gui.

Johnnie Apple Seed

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Access Systems" <accessys@smart.net>
To: "Kelly Pierce" <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>
Cc: <Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com>; <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>; 
<John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: accessible banking:



On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Kelly Pierce wrote:

> I wonder how many jobs are calibrated so the end user runs "Linux 
> operating
> system, Lynx browser, and emacspeak text to audio adaptive software"?  I
> suspect very few.

besides myself I,ve only met one other person but I was using it more as
an example of  an open source solution to high priced proprietary
software.

> The ADA prohibition against charging for an accommodation does not pertain
> to personal devices, such as eyeglasses or wheelchairs.  if the screen
> reader is on a public terminal, then the entity with the terminal is
> responsible for the cost.  If the screen reader is on a user's own 
> machine,
> then it would likely be considered a personal device and the end user is
> responsible for the cost, just like a wheelchair user is responsible for 
> the
> cost of the wheelchair in order to use a wheelchair accessible building.

not so,  Transit sytems have lost lawsuits on having inaccessible
websites.    and there is a requirement for the text alternative, we
discuss ad nausiam on this groupp

Bob

>
> Kelly
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Access Systems" <accessys@smart.net>
> To: <Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com>
> Cc: <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>; 
> <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>;
> <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 10:50 AM
> Subject: RE: accessible banking:
>
>
> > On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com wrote:
> >
> >> What I am thinking about is how the poverty issue impacts the security
> >> issue.
> >> I describe it as a poverty issue since the statement "The law should 
> >> read
> >> that anyone should be able to access and fully use any tehnology
> >> appropriate
> >> for a task and which fits their needs." includes people without
> >> disabilities
> >> and I believe is an attempt to include less economically fortunate
> >> members
> >> of the communities addressed by the W3C WAI Guidelines.  Poverty is not
> >> an
> >> accessibility issue unique to these communities as it impacts many
> >> outside
> >> of these communities.
> >
> > but people with disabilities are more likely to be below the poverty 
> > level
> >
> >> The problem arises when an Internet user fortunate enough to have an
> >> early
> >> 1990's era system attempts to visit a secure site.  This system is
> >> probably
> >
> > or those persons not using the Windows operating system, such as Mac,s,
> > Linux and a whole range of open source products
> >
> >> not capable of supporting current encryption standards.  Does the 
> >> secure
> >> site
> >> owner have an obligation to provide this user access at the risk of
> >> compromising security?
> >
> > however demanding that a user purchase an expensive piece of specific
> > software is not a security issue.
> >
> >> Or does the "...appropriate for a task..." part of
> >> this statement mean this era browser would be exempt from the site 
> >> owners
> >> obligation?  And if we make this exception, is it not also fair to say
> >> users of "free" browsers capable of supporting current encryption
> >> standards
> >> and 'modeling' IE browser behavior have access to any site optimized 
> >> for
> >> accessibility with an IE browser?
> >>
> >> Given that non-Internet Explorer browsers are now able to 'model' the
> >> behavior
> >> of an Internet Explorer browser, a distinction between the product
> >> Internet Explorer and the behavior of this product needs to be made. 
> >> To
> >> say
> >> a site is only accessible with an IE browser can mean two different
> >> things.
> >> Either the product Internet Explorer or the behavior of an IE browser 
> >> is
> >> needed.  "Free" browsers able to 'model' Internet Explorer behavior
> >> provide
> >> the means for less economically fortunate users to access sites 
> >> optimized
> >> for the Internet Explorer browser without incurring any expense or
> >> exposure
> >> to any of the Internet Explorer security issues often cited.
> >
> > however how does this allow people using specific adaptive software use
> > the site,  for example a cheap (poor) visually impaired user. accessing
> > the site via Linux operating system, Lynx browser, and emacspeak text to
> > audio adaptive software.
> >
> > 508 (as does title II and III of ADA) prohibits requiring individuals to
> > purchase anything other users do  not have to purchase.. if requiring 
> > IE,
> > does that mean that the secure site must provide free a copy of JAWS ???
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Kurt Mattes
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: david poehlman [mailto:david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:37 AM
> >> To: Mattes, Kurt (Bank One); kpierce2000@earthlink.net;
> >> John.Carpenter@pdms.com; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
> >> Subject: Re: accessible banking:
> >>
> >>
> >> I guess so but could you ellaborate on your question.
> >>
> >> Johnnie Apple Seed
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: <Kurt_Mattes@bankone.com>
> >> To: <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>;
> >> <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>;
> >> <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:22 AM
> >> Subject: RE: accessible banking:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Does "The law should read that anyone should be able to access
> >> and fully use any tehnology appropriate for a task and which fits their
> >> needs." include any browser capable of connecting to the Internet?
> >>
> >> Kurt Mattes
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org]On
> >> Behalf Of david poehlman
> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:10 AM
> >> To: Kelly Pierce; John Carpenter; wai-ig list
> >> Subject: Re: accessible banking:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Kelly and all, the laws are flawed in this fashion.  they assume lack 
> >> of
> >> people function when the issue is lack of technology function.  I just
> >> read
> >> a piece on this in fact from the ncd called "righting the ada" which
> >> sadly
> >> carries this mal assumption forward.  90 ercent or more of the issues 
> >> we
> >> face are artificial and the sooner they are dealt with, the better.  It
> >> is
> >> as you point out 2005 and was not right in any age to task technology
> >> with
> >> setting the tone for people's lives but rather technology should be
> >> tasked
> >> to serve us.
> >>
> >> I did state in my message that this has nothing to do with law, but
> >> perhaps
> >> I was in error.  The law should read that anyone should be able to 
> >> access
> >> and fully use any tehnology appropriate for a task and which fits their
> >> needs.  There are many places in the country and in the world where is 
> >> is
> >> a
> >> mis fit and always will be.
> >>
> >> Johnnie Apple Seed
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Kelly Pierce" <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>
> >> To: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>; "John
> >> Carpenter" <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; "wai-ig list" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:03 AM
> >> Subject: Re: accessible banking:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@handsontechnologeyes.com>
> >> To: "Kelly Pierce" <kpierce2000@earthlink.net>; "John Carpenter"
> >> <John.Carpenter@pdms.com>; "wai-ig list" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 7:42 AM
> >> Subject: Re: accessible banking:
> >>
> >>
> >> > Part of accessibility is choice.  I should be able to access any web
> >> > site
> >> > with any combination of user agent and technology accessibly and it 
> >> > be
> >> > accessible.  Is this a tall order?  Yes, is it necessary, yes.
> >>
> >> **Not under the Americans with Disabilities Act.  As long as the means 
> >> of
> >> communication made available to you is effective, I.e. allowing you to
> >> complete a certain task, then the bank has fulfilled its access
> >> obligations.
> >> Under the ADA, courts view access by functional performance, not by
> >> process.
> >> they also don't consider optimal or preferential means but the means 
> >> that
> >> is
> >> sufficient to complete the specified task.  You may choose not to use
> >> Internet Explorer, but in 2005 I have not seen an argument saying that 
> >> it
> >> is
> >> unreasonable or insufficient to require people with disabilities only 
> >> to
> >> use
> >> Internet Explorer to access online banking services.  It seems like you
> >> want
> >> access beyond what is required beyond that of the ADA.
> >>
> >> Kelly
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> **********************************************************************
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> >> and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the
> >> intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, 
> >> copying,
> >> distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any
> >> reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you received this
> >> transmission
> >> in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the 
> >> material
> >> in
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
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> >   ASCII Ribbon Campaign                        accessBob
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Received on Wednesday, 2 February 2005 03:09:51 GMT

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