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Re: Frames redux

From: Lloyd G. Rasmussen <lras@loc.gov>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 15:36:36 -0500
Message-Id: <>
To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
>Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 14:17:54 -0500
>To: Melinda Morris-Black <melinda@ink.org>
>From: "Lloyd G. Rasmussen" <lras@loc.gov>
>Subject: Re: Frames redux

>Window-Eyes works with IE 5 and MS Active Accessibility.  Similar
technology to the last two versions of Jaws for Windows.  But what these
screen readers do with the information supplied by the browser through MSAA
is different in many details.  In short, I don't know how JFW handles frames.
>Window-Eyes 3.1 Gives you the whole frameset in one page, minus the
noframes section.  Many frames are untitled, but if they are labeled, WE
can give you the names.  You cycle among frames with ctrl-Tab to go forward
or shift-ctrl-Tab to go backward.  So you have the choice of hearing the
whole page or jumping to the frame you want and reading from there.  GW
Micro's web page takes advantage of frames, but only if IE 5 is detected.
>I am beginning to think that it would be better to use frames for the very
common practice of putting a whole web page in a large table with
navigation links down the left and/or right column with the content down
the center column.  Support for named frames is at least available in these
screen reader/browser hybrids using IE 5, in Home Page Reader, and in Lynx.
 We don't yet have equivalent support for named columns in tables in these
browsers.  It's all very well to say that tables should only be used for
displaying data, but the industry isn't getting that message, so we have
tables for everything, with poor support by Lynx and Window-eyes.  I won't
even talk about Netscape.
>At 12:04 PM 2/16/00 -0600, you wrote:
>>Concerning the topic of frames, I should have been more clear. What I really
>>need to know about are users "experiences" when encountering frames in a
>>The exact question I was asked by our web developer was "Does it read the
>>frame in the frameset, then the rest in succession or what?", the it being
>>I've used Home Page Reader to go through sites, but wasn't sure if other
>>assistive technologies read frames pages in the same fashion. Is that indeed
>>the case? It is my understanding that most visually impaired individuals use
>>system applications, like Jaws. All you assistive technology users (not just
>>the visually impaired), please share your experiences! I want to give a
>>designer an informed idea of what comes out on your end. Thanks in advance.
>>Information Architect
>>Information Networks of Kansas
>>FON: (785) 296-5143
>>PCS: (785) 550-7345
>>FAX: (785) 296-5563
>>Attachment Converted: "c:\eudora\attach\melinda2.vcf"
Lloyd Rasmussen, Senior Staff Engineer
National Library Service f/t Blind and Physically Handicapped
Library of Congress    (202) 707-0535  <lras@loc.gov>
HOME:  <lras@sprynet.com>   <http://lras.home.sprynet.com
Received on Wednesday, 16 February 2000 15:36:00 UTC

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