W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > w3c-wai-gl@w3.org > July to September 2001

GJR's #wai IRC log (11 September 01 / 11:57:22 to 21:39:37)

From: gregory j. rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 01:30:26 -0400
To: <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Cc: "Wendy A. Chisholm" <wendy@w3.org>, "Jason White" <jasonw@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au>, "Gregg Vanderheiden" <gv@trace.wisc.edu>, <gv@trace.wisc.edu>, "Gregg Vanderheiden" <gv@trace.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <CEEMJDFDIKKPEJJLKBKJOENDCAAA.oedipus@hicom.net>
[NOTE: LOG HAS 2 GAPS DUE TO LOSS OF CARRIER]
Session Start: Tue Sep 11 11:57:22 2001
Now talking in #wai
* Logging #wai to 'logs\#wai.log'
*** Retrieving #wai info...***
* oedipus observing an extended moment of silence while waiting for others
to join
*** Geeze has joined #wai
<Geeze> joined
<oedipus> hey geeze - trying to contact my reader who was traveling through
WTC around the time of the crash, but no cell service and nothing but
strictly local service
<Geeze> still typing with one hand?
<oedipus> yep - joe clark has been providing me with one-handed guidance
<oedipus> using mIRC today - for the first time in a long time
<oedipus> so what's going on - everything proceding as "normal"?
<oedipus> i turned logging on, but don't know how long i'll be able to keep
conection
<Geeze> I just set it to logging but I guess I'd have to forward that.
<Geeze> now I'll automatically log all chats, I think.
* oedipus notes that that is what aaron s does, and since his brain equals
several of mine, who am i to argue
* oedipus oedipus wonders what the status of the meetings today are, and
will stay on IRC regardless to keep the interested/concerned informed of
what's happening at ground zero plus half-a-mile
* oedipus notes that while he can't initiate outgoing phone calls, incoming
phone calls can sporadically get through
*** chaals has joined #wai
<oedipus> aloha, chaals
<chaals> Hey guys.
<oedipus> geeze went to feed the goats
<chaals> Not a lot of action here at the moment - we have folks slowly
appearing in the room
<chaals> Maggie wanted to know that you and Alekz were OK.
<chaals> I told her that I suspected so.
<oedipus> tell maggie, yes - can't phone. just heard from alekz, who is
getting ready to walk to queens across the 59th street bridge
<chaals> ta - cool.
<oedipus> worried about my reader, who may have been in the WTC. worried
about all of the people i know who work in WTC. worried about the VP of
VICUG NYC, who works in the WTC (as do several other members)
* oedipus will stay on the channel
*** TimLa has joined #wai
* oedipus notes that reuters news service photos are extremely well
described - for coverage of the attack, consult:
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/g/ts/ which is pretty expressive, even if you
can't see the photos
<oedipus> aloha, tim
<oedipus> no phone service, but paradoxiacally, i'm still connected to the
'net via a dialup server
<TimLa> Howdy.
<oedipus> just shot you a copy of the emessage i sent to the w3c staff
earlier this morning
<TimLa> The UUAG meeting is can celled.  Probably ATAG as well.  We're here,
remains to be seen what we'll accomplish.
<oedipus> ok - thanks for the update - i'll continue to hang on as long as i
am able
* oedipus again notes that reuters news service photos are extremely well
described - for coverage of the attack, consult:
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/g/ts/ which is pretty expressive, even if you
can't see the photos
* oedipus notes that he cannot call out
* oedipus reports that eye-witnesses report that the WTC (world trade
center) didn't so much collapse as evaporate
* oedipus wondering what's going on in redmond/bellevue
<oedipus> are the meetings transpiring?
<TimLa> Not at this point
<oedipus> thanks, tim
*** irc has joined #wai
<irc> I am here
<irc> this is david poehlman
<oedipus> yet again notes that reuters news service photos are extremely
well described - for coverage of the attack, consult:
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/g/ts/ which is pretty expressive, even if you
can't see the photos
<irc> you can get info on: http://www.emergencymail.com
*** wendy has joined #wai
<oedipus> aloha, wendy
<wendy> hey there.
* oedipus reflects that he is quite glad that the responsible parties
weren't packing a nuclear or chemical device, or he wouldn't be typing this
* oedipus notes that he still cannot call out, but will stay on channel to
provide updates/info as they become available from ground zero plus half a
mile
*** irc is now known as poehlman
<poehlman> Hi wendy.
<chaals> We are together in the room.
<chaals> That's about all.
<poehlman> Hi chas
<Geeze> I'm in a room but I am not at all together. This is too weird.
<oedipus> amen, brother, amen
<chaals> Well, I didn't claim I was together, jsut that we are in the same
place.
* oedipus notes that he is even less together than usual
<Geeze> I feel like in '63 when JFK got assassinated and I don't think I can
get away from the TV.
<chaals> Hi Dave, BTW
<Geeze> A severe test for "we are all members of one another", not to
mention "we're all in this together".
<oedipus> even weirder than when i listened to the PLA "liberating" tianemen
(sp?) square live via BBC
<oedipus> urgent calls for blood in NYC - there was already a severe
shortage and some hulaballoo about importing blood from the EU
<Geeze> send us your poor, your hungry, your blood?
<poehlman> I am on a shell account via telnet.
<Geeze> I'll try to come back this PM
*** Geeze has quit IRC
<poehlman> It's been a long time ince I've used irc like this.
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<oedipus> status report?  stunned disbelief?
<poehlman> not sure
<poehlman> I'm still in shock.  it was all I could do to cancel all my
plans.
<poehlman> briefing on now.
<oedipus> well, as you know from what i sent you, it's all been
disorienting, especially when i couldn't get any radio reception after
hearing what i thought were refineries in jersey exploding and then
afterward felt what felt like an earthquake followed by more explosions
* oedipus notes that it is still eerily quiet here directly across the river
from WTC - is this the calm at the eye of the hurricaine, or the calm after
the storm?
<poehlman> there seems to be no info that we don't already have yet.
*** DDUSA has joined #wai
<oedipus> salut!
<DDUSA> hello guys
<DDUSA> DanielD from Cambridge/Management meeting
<oedipus> one of the flights was reported as an american airlines flight
from boston to LAX
<oedipus> still no word of casualties, but lots of stories of people
panicking and jumping from the WTC
<DDUSA> given that boston is probably going to stay closed for a few days,
I'm gonna try Montreal tomorrow..
<oedipus> apparently, the twin towers simply evaporated, and through the
smoke plumes, people here in joisey city can see straight through to
brooklyn
<DDUSA> (to go back to France)
<oedipus> bonne chance
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<oedipus> aloha, jo
<TimLa> For seattle local bllod donor info:
<TimLa> I have heard that there is a shortage of blood in New York.  I will
be donating today and am forwarding on info for others who may be interested
in donating as well.
<TimLa> Bellevue Donor Center  (near overlake hospital)
<TimLa> 1021 112th Avenue NE
<TimLa> Bellevue, WA 98004
<TimLa> 425-453-4011
<TimLa> Whole Blood Donation Hours
<TimLa> Monday thru Thursday
<TimLa> 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m.
<TimLa> Friday
<TimLa> 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m.
<TimLa> Saturday
<TimLa> 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m.
<TimLa> Call 800-398-7888 now for your donation appointment or make an
appointment online.
* oedipus notes that he logged an urgent call for blood in NYC - there was
already a severe shortage and some hulaballoo and legal wrangling about
importing blood from the EU
<oedipus> thanks for posting the donation info, tim!
<Jo> thanks tim. I'm getting busy signals at both those numbers, which I
take as a good sign...
* oedipus notes that he's been logging the session, so can redistribute the
blood donation info for those already in seattle/redmond/bellevue for the
f2fs
<poehlman> ua has been cancelled
<oedipus> AU is still "on" - at least as of this writing - jutta and jan
can't leave canada, as air traffic is suspended
<poehlman> ian posted cancellation on the ua list about half an hour ago.
<poehlman> all in air flights have landed no take offs are being allowed
<oedipus> there are enough AU members on-site (and they won't be able to
leave for at least 48 hours) for us to continue remotely if the WG agrees it
is appropriate
<poehlman> I would be happy to work remotely.
*** Jo has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer)
<oedipus> moi aussi
<chaals> AU meeting will be going ahead...
<poehlman> navy ships have been sent to new york and dc.
<oedipus> what about today's meetings?  have they been cancelled? suspended?
undecided?
<oedipus> was just announced that U.S. military on alert - one step down
from "defcon5" which is a state-of-war
* oedipus oedipus needs to leave the keyboard for a short while but will be
back and will continue to log
<chaals> today's meetings are happening but not doing anything
<oedipus> ok - will try to keep a flow of info - are y'all planning to
donate blood?  there's a severe shortage in NYC
<poehlman> I'm watching msnbc on the web.
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<poehlman> no us air traffic till at least noon tomorrow.
* oedipus notes that he is listening to NYC mayor guiliani's press
conference in which he denied rumors of looting and praised ordinary new
yorkers for pitching in - apparently a lot of people have made their way
downtown to see if they can be of assistance (especially as all public
transit is closed and people are now being discouraged from walking across
the bridges out of manhattan until they are "secured"
<poehlman> I'm listening to that too.
<poehlman> the president is in omaha
* oedipus notes that this is the first nation-wide "ground stop" in history,
and is (as dp noted) in effect until at least noon tomorrow (wednesday, 12
september 2001)
<poehlman> I guess they had their desired effect.
<poehlman> I'll be back.
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<mcmay> http://www.borealisdesign.com/0911_001.jpg
<mcmay> alt= a view from the ground of the second explosion
*** KatieHS has joined #wai
<KatieHS> gregory
*** Jo has quit IRC (EOF From client)
<oedipus> yes, katie
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-> *sbp* aloha, sean!
*** wendy has quit IRC (EOF From client)
<DDUSA> if anyone has any news on expected return to normal for plane in us
and canada, I'm interested
* oedipus again notes that this is the first nation-wide "ground stop" in
history, and is (as dp noted) in effect until at least noon tomorrow
(wednesday, 12 september 2001)
<KatieHS> just saying hey, and thinking about you being alone in this....
* oedipus shamefacedly corrects that last to "first in US history"
-> *KatieHS* thanks
<sbp> British private flights are grounded, commercial filights will resume
soon
* oedipus passes on a very concise and thurough resource from sean b.p.
http://www.gweep.net/~leaf/wtc.txt
<sbp> Note that one of the passengers (on the Pittsburgh plane) made a 911
call... the transcript is described as "chilling"
* oedipus just heard that the 2 that crashed into WTC were hijacked from
logan airport in boston
<sbp> according to
http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/pit/news/stories/news-95635620010911-090
950.html, the plane that crashed in Pittsburgh was headed for Camp David...
I wonder if the pilot crashed it on purpose?
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* chaals wonders if the USAF crashed it on purpose.
<mcmay> That's my bet.
*** DDUSA has joined #wai
<chaals> 85 mi < 10 minutes.
<sbp> Could be, but wasn't it before the other attacks? Why wasn't there air
coverage of the Pentagon?
<chaals> Unsure.
<chaals> unsure of time.
<chaals> Pentagon is close t ocivil airspace
<mcmay> The Pentagon is only vulnerable by air, and the parts of it that are
vulnerable are non-critical.
<mcmay> That is, all the good stuff is underground.
<sbp> yep
<mcmay> Rob Neff mentioned that they hit the 1/5 of the Pentagon which was
actually being renovated.
<oedipus> order of events: 1) north tower of WTC hit approx. 8:45am local,
2) south tower of WTC hit, approx 9:05am, 3) approx 10am south tower of WTC
collapses and pentagon hit, 4) approx 10:30am north WTC tower collapses, 5)
plane reported down outside pittsburg (hijacked from newark airport, also
half-a-mile from me)
<oedipus> shortly thereafter, us military put on second highest alert - one
step below defcon5, which is a state of war
<oedipus> re: pentagon, yes, the part of the pentagon that was hit was the
part that was being renovated, so loss of life far, far, far less than in
NYC
<oedipus> reports now that us intelligence believes that the hijacked planes
from boston were actually flown by trained pilots - i.e. not by airline
pilots at gunpoint
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<sbp> apparently, the US government have "dispatched aircraft carriers and
guided missile destroyers to New York and Washington after Tuesday's
terrorist attacks as the president put the military on its highest level of
alert." -
http://us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31/7m/dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010911/ts/att
acks_military_3.html
<DDUSA> as scary as it sounds, I think it's actually pretty easy to organize
the terrorism logistics of what happen today
<DDUSA> for one, the hijacker didn't need any conceiled weapons
<DDUSA> just trained soldier, going in the pilot cabin with a knife and
fork, and killing the two pilots, then driving the plane to wherever they
wanted
* oedipus again thanks whatever-powers-that-be that they weren't packing any
chemical or nuclear devices, otherwise he wouldn't be typing this
<DDUSA> a kamikaze commitment gives you really powerful opening
<DDUSA> grego: conceiling chemical or nuclear bomb would have been much more
difficult
<oedipus> reports from brooklyn (where the wind took the fallout/soot) was
that it was like a grey snowfall
<oedipus> not really - chemical agents in plastic containers are routinely
brought aboard us flights by FAA and other regulatory inspectors - they've
even been able to carry aboard dummy bombs made entirely of metal parts on
ocassion
<oedipus> all you really need is someone working for/with you in the ground
crew
<DDUSA> I agree, but it's an order of magniture more logistics (complicity,
avoiding leak, etc) than using kamikaze operating with their hands and
brains
* chaals agrees with DD
<oedipus> true - just surprised to have heard from eyewitnesses that the WTC
didn't so much collapse as simply evaporate in a cloud of dust and ash
<chaals> BTW we are talking now in the meeting.
<chaals> How do we write checkpoints?
<chaals> JM what if we have something that we want to recommend but can't
provide success criteria
<DDUSA> ok, I'm back in my meeting too
* oedipus suggests that work move to #wai-wcag leaving this channel open
* oedipus oedipus yields to chaals' gentle persuasion and will continue
chatting on #chat
* oedipus will continue to log #wai
* chaals has set up #chat to talk about chat stuff.
<oedipus> are we adhering to agenda, or are you winging it?
<chaals> winging it.
<chaals> Things to talk about: structure? (I missed the start of this)
<chaals> Meeting in Oz.
<oedipus> are we discussing elephants?
<chaals> CM We can't make a checkpoint normative without success criteria
<chaals> elephants: Think so a bit. But meeting in Oz is a short sharp thing
I want an answer for.
<chaals> (and have for two years... sigh)
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<oedipus> are meetings in oz set or still predicated upon potential
attendance figures?
<chaals> ASW we could have this as "these are good things to do too" in a
seperate section/document
<chaals> oz: To some extent. they are also predicated on the group making a
decision
<chaals> GV In Americans w/ disabilities guidelines they have things you
must do, and advisory things.
<chaals> ... reason for buildings being accessible is because this stuff is
in the building code, and has to pass inspection by the building inspectors.
<chaals> ... so there is nothing in those things that you cannot actually do
today.
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<oedipus> yes, but what is in building code is insufficient
<chaals> ... so something is advisory. Or you word something so it is
clearly subjective - did you think this is the best thing you have done....
<oedipus> at least for me - bathroom example from april post to GL
<chaals> RN I would like a testable requirement. Can be qualitative or
quantitative - quantitative is easier to test, qualitative requires more
text.
<oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2001AprJun/0242
<chaals> ... I would like to seperate the checkpoints to qualitative or
quantitiative.
*** sbp has quit IRC (Homer: 20 dollars? I wanted a peanut!)
* oedipus notes that chaals or wendy should also try to log #wai in case i
lose server, as i did frequently yesterday
* chaals acks
<chaals> WC there are subjective tests that are clearly aesy to do. And
there are some that are hard. Tool developers want the AERT stuff - test
suites and heuristics.
* chaals isn't going to minunte much more.
<oedipus> can someone minute then - still no phone service here
*** mcmay has joined #wai
* oedipus still thinks y'all should adjourn to the nearest blood bank
<chaals> We were going to but they had 3 hour queues
<oedipus> glad to hear it
<TimLa> Shall I try to minte for a bit?
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<oedipus> please -thanks tim
<andisnow> gv What is meaning of subjective
<andisnow> wc
<andisnow> wc needs human judgement
<TimLa> Wendy: should be able to automate objective
<andisnow> gv 1. machine testable 2. human objective 3. human subjective
<andisnow> rn quantitative: pass/fail or qualitative: pass/fail
<andisnow> gb conditions are not stated explicitly in current success
criteria
<andisnow> gb none of current success criteria are machine checkable
<andisnow> gv consolidate comments
<andisnow> gv seem to be talking about machine testable and human objective
as being in a category
<andisnow> that category is objective or testable
<andisnow> used quantitative and qualitative but have slightly different
meaning
<andisnow> interesting exercise - walk thru checkpoints, make notes, see
what we have, how would we label?
<andisnow> wc getting back to gb's comment about success criteria not being
machine checkable
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<andisnow> wc that really occurs at technology level
<andisnow> wc still want specific real life examples. test to see if we all
agree on them.
<andisnow> wc important to be collecting data
<oedipus> agree on what? it is very hard to follow
<andisnow> gv before W3C guidelines, had unified guidelines at Trace
<andisnow> agree on whether or not the real life examples meet the
checkpoints or not.
<andisnow> gv if find that we cannot agree on whether a site meets a
particular checkpoint,
<andisnow> gv might be a good indication that it is too subjective to be a
checkpoint.
<andisnow> gv any ideas on how we could methodically gather data regarding
objectiveness of our checkpoints
<andisnow> cm get 10 people to independently assess the same set of pages
using the checkpoints
<andisnow> cmn see if they come up with the same results
<oedipus> isn't this EO work?
<andisnow> chas volunteer to put up a site for the test
* oedipus notes that test pages and suites have been talked about since '97
<andisnow> wc already started. called WORT.
<andisnow> wc database can be very rich database. make assertions in EARL.
<andisnow> cmn can manipulate data in interesting ways, compare results
against other kinds of results
<andisnow> wc associate results with specific version of checkpoint
* oedipus asks associate WHAT results with specific version of WHAT
checkpoint?
<andisnow> wc Josh Krieger and Chris Redpath created test cases for ERT
* oedipus is WC speaking in general of what ER has been up to?
<andisnow> results of assessing a test site against a specific checkpoint.
<oedipus> are we talking about adapting what's been done for WCAG1 to WCAG2
for "testing" purposes?
<andisnow> WC is speaking about ER current activity
* oedipus thanks andisnow - for the answer and for minuting!
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<Geeze> whasa haps?
<andisnow> wc EARL info is available
-> *geeze* they're working - general chat on channel #chat
<andisnow> wc WART is WCAG 1 priority 1 checkpoints, need to convert to WCAG
2
<chaals> EARL: http://www.w3.org/2001/03/earl
<oedipus> GJR: wc, is that work currently being done
<andisnow> gv need volunteer to create instrument that testers will use to
evaluate pages
<chaals> to GR: yep.
<andisnow> gv chas will help to his ability to do it
* oedipus oedipus is abashed at his ignorance of ER work - is there a URI
for that or an archived game-plan slash time-schedule?
<andisnow> gv need 10 volunteers, go to web to get those
<andisnow> gv need volunteer coordinator that doesn't know the volunteers,
assign numbers to volunteers
<andisnow> wc automate using form
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<andisnow> gv okay, automate using form
<andisnow> chas don't have to limit it to 10
<andisnow> gv need minimum of 10
<andisnow> wc variety of disabilities, platforms, technologies, etc.
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<andisnow> cmn blind person may not know something is missing
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<andisnow> wc think a lot of people won't mind being identified
<Geeze> bye
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<andisnow> wc want to know what process people use to determine if meets
checkpoint or not
<andisnow> gv this will be a lot of work. need to implement carefully so
that can draw valid conclusions in the end
* oedipus oedipus again states that review activity should be coordinated
with EO - especially in light of the ongoing web site evaluation techniques
work being done in EO - mutually beneficial
<andisnow> cmn need to be able to go back and ask people their reasoning
* oedipus = GJR: agree with GV - need tight controls so that false
postitives and negatives due to configurations are not allowed to muddy the
waters
<andisnow> gb should design experiment starting from goal, measurements,
then plan and carry out experiment
<oedipus> need to determine when is it an AT problem, when is it a UA
problem, when is it a failure to implement to spec, when is it a failure on
the user's part (ignorance, unwitting settings changes, etc)
<andisnow> TO GR: does EO get involved with this since WCAG 2 is not a
recommendation yet?
<oedipus> to AndiSnow: yes, yes, and YES
* oedipus thanks AndiSnow for asking (and minuting)
<andisnow> GR: why should EO be involved with this?
<andisnow> GR: are you saying EO should be a tester?
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<andisnow> GR: can you dial in?
<oedipus> because: 1) expertise; 2) these are the people who are chartered
to explain WCAG1, the current process, and eventually WCAG2 to the world at
large and to create & disseminate educational materials
<oedipus> no, i cannot dial in - cannot get long distance service yet in
joisey city, although i have been able to receive incoming calls (hint,
hint)
* oedipus can be reached (perhaps) at tel:+12015210527
<andisnow> GR: dialing you now
* oedipus notes that some people have indicated that they only get a ring,
some that they get nothing, and others get through
* oedipus notes that he is still logging #wai
-> *andisnow* you getting through? phone ain't ringing
<andisnow> WCAG dialing GR now
<oedipus> thanks
<andisnow> gv need to build sample of pages
<andisnow> wc for ERT workshop, took top sites from media metrics site
<andisnow> lgr assumed we would take volunteers from within WCAG group
<andisnow> lgr can we do this without techniques documents
* oedipus notes that there are sample pages for testing UAAG implementation
at: http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/wai/ua/tests
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<andisnow> chas tool needs to record answer and rationale for answer
* oedipus adds: and a lot more on my hard-drive
<andisnow> gv if take top 25 pages and all were designed by same consulting
group and don't diversity of technology, may not be a good test
<andisnow> chas need a wide variety of pages
<andisnow> gv need a range
<andisnow> wc need to coordinate with team doing usability study on WCAG 2
<oedipus> are we speaking of instructive or destructive examples?
<andisnow> wc usability team to determine if people can either create sites
or evaluate sites using the guidelines
<andisnow> wc usability team is testing people who don't know the
guidelines - for understandability
<andisnow> gv we are testing people who write the guidelines - for validity
<andisnow> wc should be required of each WG member to complete at least one
test
<andisnow> cmn ATAG requires each member to complete at least one evaluation
<andisnow> wc have 91 people on WCAG list now
<andisnow> wc have not asked people to rejoin since new charter
<andisnow> wc may need to flush list and ask people to rejoin. need rules
for participating.
*** Disconnected
Session Close: Tue Sep 11 17:33:13 2001

[FIRST GAP IN GJR's LOG OF #wai]

Session Start: Tue Sep 11 17:33:20 2001
*** Now talking in #wai
* SanchoP = oedipus = GR = GJR = Gregory J. Rosmaita = me
* SanchoP lost carrier
*** oedipus has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
<andisnow> gv have 268 test files
<andisnow> wc tried 20 of them in evaluating a ER tool, didn't take long at
all
<andisnow> cmn do test files identify what they are testing?
<andisnow> wc yes they do.
<andisnow> gv our test would be to look at the test page and see if we come
up with the same error
<andisnow> wc interesting part of this is to see how different people reach
conclusions
* SanchoP adds to WC's last comment: and finding out what role configuration
takes
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* SanchoP er, rather plays
<andisnow> ACTION: wc and chas will work out the details and propose to the
group
*** Disconnected
Session Close: Tue Sep 11 17:41:12 2001

[SECOND GAP IN GJR's LOG OF #wai]

Session Start: Tue Sep 11 17:41:21 2001
*** Now talking in #wai
<andisnow> discussion about limiting the list to only people who
participate, not allowing "lurkers"
<andisnow> cmn object to disallowing "lurkers"
<andisnow> wc need people to read charter, requirements, etc. as condition
of joining
<andisnow> khs excluding people who have valuable information but cannot
participate more
<andisnow> rn should allow "lurkers". work schedule may prohibit
participation for periods of time
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<andisnow> gv anybody should be able to join just to monitor the mailing
list. shouldn't have to go to archives for that
*** TimLa has joined #wai
<andisnow> gv if not going to participate in discussions, posts should be
filtered through WG chairs
<andisnow> chas good idea to allow people to be able to subscribe to list
without being able to post
<andisnow> chas good idea for chairs to filter posts from people who are not
participating
<andisnow> chas might be fair to allow posts from people who are
participating in other working groups
<andisnow> jm process of housecleaning has lot of benefits
<andisnow> jm some new people may have been cowed into silence by what has
been going on on the list
<andisnow> jm this process might bring them into participation
<andisnow> wc reason for W3C "member in good standing" status is to keep
working groups moving forward
<andisnow> wc lot of "lurkers" not hindering us in any way.
<andisnow> wc when issues come up, need to limit consensus to group of
people who are really participating
<andisnow> cmn ATAG has list of members in good standing. only those members
can participate in decision making
<andisnow> gv inappropriate posts should be admonished on the list, if not
corrected, last resort is to remove from working group
<andisnow> jm some people choose to participate in ways that are most
satisfactory to them, not because of time constraints
* oedipus is worried that he spammed the channel when last disconnected -
system went hirewire and events started firing randomly...
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*** TimLa has joined #wai
<andisnow> gv requiring participation in teleconference may not be possible
for people in certain geographies or who are at jobs that don't allow
participation at that time
<andisnow> mm consensus building is important
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<timlaranc> timlaranch = timla
<andisnow> mm once consensus reached on a point, close it and don't re-open
unless there is new information
* oedipus apologies for inattention - been coralling emergency info & phone
numbers for VICUG NYC - several members, including our VP worked in WTC
<andisnow> chas at some point, have to close down WCAG 2. need to set up
list of issues for WCAG 3
<andisnow> gv could require consensus to re-open issue
<andisnow> chas need to determine who counts for consensus
* oedipus muses whether we can "close down" wcag2 until all of the "until
user agent..." clauses of wcag1 are obviated
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<andisnow> wc discussion is reaffirming W3C process
* oedipus wonders what WC meant
*** timlaranc is now known as TimLa
* oedipus that reminds me i am the participant-formerly-known-as-SanchoP
<KatieHS> the musician formerly known as?............
<andisnow> cmn uh....
<andisnow> tl parallel to sw development. at some point you have to freeze
the product and ship it.
<andisnow> tl other comments have to be postponed to next release
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<andisnow> cmn does "I changed my mind" count as new information
* oedipus still wonders (more vociferously, now) what about the until user
agent clauses?
<andisnow> gv do not "have" to reach consensus
<andisnow> gv changing mind is new information. group decides if want to
re-open issue
* oedipus wishes that is the way all WGs approached "new" information!!!
<andisnow> chas should encourage people to only post something to list that
adds to discussion
<andisnow> we are taking a break
* oedipus notes that he has just learned that british authorities have
diverted all air traffic from central london and that they will ban all
flights over residential areas of london until further notice
* oedipus announces that the president of the US will "address the nation"
in "2 hours" which he presumes to mean 8pm U.S. eastern daylight savings
time (5pm local time)
* oedipus oedipus wonders if maybe there isn't a mathematical reason why he
trained as a medievalist - 2 hours from now is 9pm US eastern daylight
savings time (6pm local)
* oedipus and finally, i am at least pleased to note that i am not at all a
natural at the practice of refering to myself in the third person
* oedipus notes that when he repeated himself earlier ("vociferously") he
thought we were talking about "closing" WCAG2
* oedipus notes that WTC building 7 (a 49 story edifice) collapsed at
approximately 6:15 US eastern daylight savings time
* oedipus amends the last coment to 5:15pm US eastern daylight savings time
* oedipus FBI is now reporting that "knives" were used in at least 3 of the
4 hijackings (the planes that hit the WTC and the pentagon)
*** KatieHS has quit IRC
* oedipus NYC update: there are warnings that the mariott hotel at the world
financial center is in immediate danger of collapse - manhattan is closed
below 14th. street
<andisnow> rn has suggested using quantitative and qualitative labels for
checkpoints
<andisnow> chas is not sure these are good either
<andisnow> jm if can't come up with success criteria for certain
checkpoints, still would like to have them in the document somehow
<andisnow> chas could leave all checkpoints in "advisory" group. move out of
"advisory" to "normative" once certain criteria are met
<andisnow> gv what are the criteria for moving them out
<andisnow> ?
<andisnow> chas success criteria is one thing
<andisnow> chas others will come out of testing process we have been
discussing
* oedipus whispers that updates will continue on #chat
<andisnow> mm proposes that content related checkpoints cannot be normative
*** jason has joined #wai
* oedipus sez to jason "good on, you, mate!"
<andisnow> cmn it's useless just to say "have alternative content" without
saying what that should be
<jason> I just arrived. I assume there is a meeting running.
<oedipus> correct as usual
-> *jason* are you listening on phone or just IRC
<jason> Just IRC at the moment with an average interface.
<andisnow> hi jason
<jason> Hello Andi.
<andisnow> cmn proposes that rules on whether something is normative or not
are largely philosophical until we apply to actual checkpoints
<jason> I assume it is mid-afternoon. Are you having a break from the
meeting now or are the minutes on a separate channel?
<oedipus> there is a meeting running
<andisnow> rn if checkpoint deals with content, need to build requirements
<andisnow> rn if alt text or equivalents for audio or video, need to provide
examples and methods to test for
<andisnow> gv don't want to defer tough topics until the end
<andisnow> gv if we decide early that something has to meet a particular
criteria, we may save time in wordsmithing
<andisnow> gv like idea proposed by chas to move everything into "advisory"
category until it meets a normativity test
<andisnow> lgr seems like group is coming to consensus that something should
not be normative if we can't provide success criteria for it
<andisnow> disagreement from group
<andisnow> chas haven't come up with the criteria yet for what moves things
from "advisory" to "normative" category
<andisnow> gv agree to reject "things that are not normative should be in a
separate document"
<andisnow> cmn disagrees
<andisnow> group still undecided on this one
<andisnow> discussion about elephant categories
<andisnow> is the bottom category rejected or just things that we think we
will not reach consensus on
<andisnow> lgr sense is that first 3 items in bottom category were things we
rejected
<andisnow> gv things are still in the "consensus candidate" category. Should
we leave the meeting with things still in this category?
<andisnow> chas need to have a category of things that are "tabled" until
later
<oedipus> what is scope of discussion, please?
<andisnow> oedipus we are talking about the categories of the big issues we
defined yesterday
<andisnow> we called the big issues "elephants"
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*** jason has joined #wai
<andisnow> group is discussing items that are candidates for consensus to
determine if we can reach consensus on any of them
* oedipus whispers president bush to address "the nation in t minus 10
minutes and counting
<andisnow> jason and gregory, do you have an opinion on the following?
<andisnow> 3 items
<andisnow> we shouldn't be including anything as normative that
<andisnow> 1. we can't provide success criteria for
<andisnow> 2. is not testable
<andisnow> 3rd item is: normative is determined by objectiveness - ease of
establishing consensus on fulfillment.
* oedipus muses lots of double-negatives...
<jason> I agree with 1, and with 2 also, provided that (as suggested
yesterday) testability is not equated with the existence of automated tests.
<andisnow> lgr success criteria are appealing if they are "sufficient"
* oedipus does not understand 3
<oedipus> agree with 1
<jason> 3 also seems reasonable but requires a little more definition--do
you mean that if informed experts conducting tests tend to reach the same
results (i.e., have similar judgments in particular cases) then the item is
deemed testable?
* oedipus is even more luke-warm about 2 than is jason
* oedipus wonders who deems success criteria "sufficient"
* oedipus wonders testable by whom?
<andisnow> WCAG working group decides what is testable
<andisnow> consensus is that for something to be normative it must have
success criteria
<jason> I have problems with the distinction between "testable" and "not
testable". If it doesn't mean (in some way) that informed judges agree, by
and large, in their opinions regarding whether particular items have been
implemented, then what does it mean? What is the difference between an
item's being "testable", and their being good success criteria for it?
<andisnow> consensus is that "testable" does not necessarily mean "machine
testable"
<andisnow> breaking to watch the president
<oedipus> president begining to address "the nation"
* oedipus realizes you know
<jason> Yes, heard it on BBC and CNN (live relay).
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<andisnow> oedipus do you agree that success criteria must be sufficient?
that is, if you do them that's all you have to do.
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<andisnow> consensus is that success criteria must be sufficient
<oedipus> no - how can it possibly be?
<jason> They must be, otherwise they aren't success criteria.
<oedipus> how can we presume to say "we have covered EVERY case?"
<andisnow> oedipus please explain
<oedipus> just did
<andisnow> if they aren't sufficient, how can you tell that you have met the
checkpoint?
<jason> Basically we must do our best to ensure that the language of the
success criteria covers those cases, and only those cases, that fall under
the checkpoint.
<oedipus> at a tech-specific level, you can determine unequivocally if you
have met the letter of the law, by which i mean compliance to spec (alt on
IMG for example)
<oedipus> who defines the "spirit of the law" -
comprehensibility/meaningfullness, for example
* oedipus wonders if he is making sense to anyone else
<jason> There will always be some element of judgment involved, but we
should still strive for the greatest possible clarity and precision.
<oedipus> yes, but that level of clarity & precision is only achievable at
the tech-specific level
<andisnow> in all standards and specs, one is deemed to comply if they
follow the letter of the law. You hope they follow the spirit too.
<andisnow> gv does anybody have any other pressing issues?
<andisnow> gv CMN wants to talk about meeting in Australia.
<jason> As I am effectively intruding upon this meeting I think it best to
wait until I have read the minutes (with everything in context) before
commenting further.
<andisnow> cmn question is "will we hold a meeting in Australia in
November?"
<andisnow> only cmn jw definitely can come to Australia in November.
Microsoft said they could send someone if it is as large as this one.
<andisnow> khs is planning to go but can't commit
<andisnow> cmn number of groups in Australia would like to participate
<andisnow> wc could go
<andisnow> as ibm could probably participate if delayed until January
<andisnow> cmn January not possible
<oedipus> GJR to WG: cannot just "hope they follow the spirit" if "spirit"
is subjective and non-machine testable (or words to that effect)
* oedipus apologizes that he was away trying to compile a local emergency
resource for VICUG NYC
http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/vicug/wtc_emergency_info.html
<andisnow> gv concern over 3-day f2f meeting that doesn't have any of the
people that regularly participate
<andisnow> oedipus could you come to Australia in november for a meeting?
<andisnow> gv idea -  could we do a half day wcag meeting on two days where
we could get a significant portion of the active wcag members on line.
<oedipus> re OZ in november - would like to say definitively "yes", but with
current state of health cannot honestly say for sure
*** jason has quit IRC (Leaving)
<andisnow> meeting adjourned
<oedipus> still on #chat - will send IRC log to GL list directly ASAP unless
directed otherwise
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*** Disconnected
Session Close: Tue Sep 11 21:39:37 2001

[END OF GJR'S #wai LOG]
Received on Wednesday, 12 September 2001 01:29:55 GMT

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