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meeting record: 2008-05-15 RDFa telecon

From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 12:47:55 -0400
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20080515124605.0457b4a8@127.0.0.1>
To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org
Cc: public-swd-wg@w3.org

The record of today's RDF-in-XHTML telecon [1] is available.

  [1] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/15-rdfa-minutes.html

A text snapshot follows for tracker.

----

                        RDF-in-XHTML Task Force

15 May 2008

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008May/0116.html

   See also: [3]IRC log, previous [4]2008-05-08

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/15-rdfa-irc
      [4] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html

Attendees

   Present
          Ralph Swick, Manu Sporny, Shane McCarron, Steven Pemberton

   Regrets
          Ben Adida, Mark Birbeck, Simone Onofri, Michael Hausenblas

   Chair
          Manu

   Scribe
          Ralph

Contents

     * Topics
         1. On Hold Test Case Review
               o test 4; xml:base
               o test 17; Related blanknodes
               o test 28; @xml:lang and @datatype
               o test 39 @rev - @src/@href test
               o test 40; @rev - @src/@resource test
               o test 42; omitted @about
               o test 43; @src/@href test with omitted @about
         2. Unreviewed Tests
               o test 95; No triples with two nested @rel
               o test 104; rdf:value
               o test 105; inner @rel neither CURIE nor LinkType
               o test 107; plain literal with datatype=""
               o test 108; plain literal with datatype="" and
                 xml:langpreservation
               o test 109; xml:base should be ignored
     * Summary of Action Items
     _____________________________________________________

   <Steven> There is a national ADSL breakdown here (3 days long
   alread), so the only internet connection I have is via the same
   mobile phone I will be phoning in on

   <Steven> so expect poor sound

   <msporny> no chance you're going to be able to see Test Cases to
   review them, then, Steven?

   <Steven> I'll try

   <Steven> As soon as I hit a link, the sound quality deteriorates

   Shane: I raised [22]issue-120 and I believe it's [easy to] close

     [22] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/120

   <msporny> [23]ActionSummary

     [23] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary

   ACTION: [DONE] Manu to e-mail final Christian Hoertnagl response.
   [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

     [24] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action13

   ACTION: [DONE] Manu to review current on hold test cases and e-mail
   list on what we should do with them. [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   ACTION: Michael to determine which useless-triples test cases to
   remove and which to add. [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [CONTINUES]

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   ACTION: Manu to reach out to Slashdot and attempt to get RDFa
   integrated into Slashdot. [recorded in
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
   [CONTINUES]

     [27] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action10

   Manu: I've sent email, awaiting a response

   ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform
   transferred to W3C [recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
   [CONTINUES]

     [28] http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01

   Manu: it's in progress

   ACTION: [DONE] Ben to respond to issue 87 [recorded in
   [29]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]

     [29] http://www.w3.org/2008/02/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action09

   Shane: [30]issue 87 is closed

     [30] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/87

   ACTION: Mark to move _:a bnode notation to normative section
   [recorded in
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]
   [CONTINUES]

     [31] http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action05

   ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded
   in [32]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [CONTINUES]

     [32] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

On Hold Test Case Review

   <msporny> "[33]Resolving ON HOLD Test Cases"

     [33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008May/0084.html

-- test 4; xml:base

   Manu: we don't process xml:base, so I suggest we reject test 4

   <msporny> [34]rdfa-test-harness

     [34] http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/

   PROPOSE to reject test #4

   <ShaneM> +1

   RESOLUTION: to reject test #4 xml:base

-- test 17; Related blanknodes

   Manu: I suggest we rewrite test 17 to cover explicit bnode
   relationships

   <msporny> "[35]Test Case #17 (v2): specifying named bnode
   relationships"

     [35] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008May/0096.html

   Manu: note that the SPARQL intentionally uses different bnode names
   just to insure that the implementation didn't hardcode the names

   PROPOSE to replace test 17 with [36]2008May/0096.html

     [36] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008May/0096.html

   Shane: this is the case that Mark's action refers to
   ... to take some non-normative text about bnodes and CURIEs and make
   it normative
   ... I just talked with Mark and am preparing to fix the spec now

   <ShaneM> I think the new test case is fine.

   <Ralph> +1 to proposal

   <Steven> +1

   RESOLVED to replace test 17
   with[37]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2
   008May/0096.html

     [37] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008May/0096.html

   RESOLVED test 17 approved
   per[38]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/20
   08May/0096.html

     [38] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008May/0096.html

-- test 28; @xml:lang and @datatype

   PROPOSE to reject test 28 @xml:lang and @datatype

   <ShaneM> +1

   RESOLVED to reject test 28 @xml:lang and @datatype

   Manu: tests 107 and 108 replace 28

-- test 39 @rev - @src/@href test

   Manu: this passes Ivan's parser and my parser
   ... this test checks that implmentations don't use @href to override
   @src

   <ShaneM> looks good.

   <Steven> is there a similar test for @resource?

   <ShaneM> yes its next

   Ralph: looks good to me

   <Steven> good

   RESOLUTION: test 39 approved

-- test 40; @rev - @src/@resource test

   <ShaneM> that one seems fine too.

   Manu: 40 similar to 39, checking that @resource doesn't override
   @src
   ... I'm not sure this one is correct
   ... if we're checking that @resource doesn't override @src then we
   shouldn't use @about
   ... if we remove @about then the SPARQL uses the @src value

   <msporny> <img src="[39]http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2007_01.jpg"

     [39] http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2007_01.jpg

   <msporny> rev="foaf:depicts"

   <msporny> resource="[40]http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2006_03.jpg"

     [40] http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2006_03.jpg

   <msporny> alt="A photo depicting Michael" />

   <msporny> ASK WHERE {

   <msporny> <[41]http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2006_03.jpg>
   <[42]http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/depicts>
   <[43]http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2007_01.jpg> .

     [41] http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2006_03.jpg%3E
     [42] http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/depicts%3E
     [43] http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2007_01.jpg%3E

   Ralph: I believe this is a more useful test but the semantics are
   wrong (for foaf:depicts) now

   Manu: foaf:alternate?

   <Steven> Can't you use depicts for a photo within a photo?

   Manu: ??:alternate ?

   <Steven> html:alternate

   Shane: the definition of html:alternate isn't quite right for this

   Manu: html:next works

   <msporny> }

   <msporny> <img src="[44]http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2007_01.jpg"

     [44] http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2007_01.jpg

   <msporny> rev="previous"

   <msporny> resource="[45]http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2006_03.jpg"

     [45] http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2006_03.jpg

   <msporny> alt="A photo depicting Michael" />

   <ShaneM> I think we should change the definition of "alternate" in
   our vocabulary for what its worth. This is dumb - "alternate
   designates alternate versions for the document."

   <msporny> ASK WHERE {

   <msporny> <[46]http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2006_03.jpg>
   <[47]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#previous>
   <[48]http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2007_01.jpg> .

     [46] http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2006_03.jpg%3E
     [47] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#previous%3E
     [48] http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2007_01.jpg%3E

   <msporny> }

   <Steven>
   [49]http://farm1.static.flickr.com/15/22341209_48084a909b.jpg?v=0

     [49] http://farm1.static.flickr.com/15/22341209_48084a909b.jpg?v=0

   Ralph: foaf:thumbnail ?

   Manu: these two particular images are different; one isn't a
   thumbnail of the other

   Shane: html:alternate is fine, as is html:next

   <msporny> <img src="[50]http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2007_01.jpg"

     [50] http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2007_01.jpg

   <msporny> rev="alternate"

   <msporny> resource="[51]http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2006_03.jpg"

     [51] http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2006_03.jpg

   <msporny> alt="A photo depicting Michael" />

   <msporny> ASK WHERE {

   <msporny> <[52]http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2006_03.jpg>
   <[53]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#alternate>
   <[54]http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2007_01.jpg> .

     [52] http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2006_03.jpg%3E
     [53] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#alternate%3E
     [54] http://sw-app.org/img/mic_2007_01.jpg%3E

   <msporny> }

   <Ralph> +1 to html:alternate

   <Steven> [55]22341209_48084a909b.jpg foaf:depicts
   [56]06-steven-goteborg/guido.jpg

     [55] http://farm1.static.flickr.com/15/22341209_48084a909b.jpg
     [56] http://www.w3.org/2005/Talks/06-steven-goteborg/guido.jpg

   PROPOSE: change test 40 to drop @about and use html:alternate

   <Steven> +1

   RESOLUTION: test 40 approved after changes to drop @about and use
   html:alternate

-- test 42; omitted @about

   Manu: the SPARQL in the test harness is still wrong
   ... no triples should be generated
   ... this should be turned into a negative test
   ... testing that @src is not a target
   ... this was a change to our processing rules

   Ralph: I agree; no triples should be generated

   PROPOSED: test 42 approved after changing to a negative test and
   removing triples from the SPARQL

   RESOLUTION: test 42 approved after changing to a negative test and
   removing triples from the SPARQL

-- test 43; @src/@href test with omitted @about

   <msporny> Test #43: REJECT Duplicates TC#34, TC#35, and TC#90

   <msporny> Test #44: REJECT Duplicates TC#32, TC#37, and TC#40

   <msporny> Test #45: REJECT Duplicates TC#32, TC#36, TC#37

   <ShaneM> +1

   Manu: 43, 44, and 45 are obsoleted by 34, 35, 90; 32, 37, 40; 32,
   36, 37

   Ralph: I trust you

   <Steven> +1

   RESOLUTION: tests 43, 44, and 45 dropped

   <ShaneM> updated vocab document is at [57]xhtml-vocab-20080515.html
   - Ralph, can you please install it in /1999/xhtml/vocab as
   appropriate?

     [57] http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/xhtml-vocab-20080515.html

Unreviewed Tests

-- test 95; No triples with two nested @rel

   Manu: I think tests 95, 96, and 97 should be rejected
   ... we changed the processing rules to retain "useless" triples
   ... so these tests are obsolete

   PROPOSE: reject tests 95, 96, 97

   <ShaneM> +1

   <Steven> +1

   RESOLUTION: reject tests 95, 96, 97

-- test 104; rdf:value

   Manu: the objective of 104 is to have an example of a value with a
   unit

   Ralph: this doesn't really test anything new about RDFa; it's more
   demonstrating a use case

   Manu: whomever raised this was concerned specifically about
   rdf:value

   Ralph: I don't mind duplicate tests

   <Steven> where is 104?

   <Steven> Oh found it

   <Ralph> +1

   <Steven> +1

   <ShaneM> Harmless - +1

   RESOLUTION: test 104 approved

-- test 105; inner @rel neither CURIE nor LinkType

   Manu: the point in test 105 is that the inner @rel doesn't chain
   because "myfoobarrel" isn't a valid CURIE

   Shane: mmmmm
   ... there was a private discussion about issue 120 that resolved
   this
   ... Mark has changed the editor's draft
   ... I'm not sure if the current interpretation matches 105

   Ralph: propose to passover 105

   Shane: passover 106 too

-- test 107; plain literal with datatype=""

   Manu: 107 is to replace test a test we rejected
   ... test 28 (rejected)
   ... test 107 tests that whitespace is preserved
   ... both Ivan's parser and mine pass 107

   Ralph: looks good to me
   ... do we believe all the N3 and RDF/XML variants of these tests?

   <ShaneM> +1

   Manu: all the N3 comes from Ivan's parser, so if Ivan's parser
   passes the test then the N3 is OK. But for now, continue to ignore
   the N3 and RDF/XML

   <Steven> +1

   RESOLUTION: test 107 approved

-- test 108; plain literal with datatype="" and xml:lang preservation

   Manu: I believe there's an error in the SPARQL for test 108
   ... I believe @el is missing from the end of the SPARQL

   Ralph: yep, SPARQL should preserve the lang too

   PROPOSE: accept test 108 correcting the SPARQL to specify the
   language

   <ShaneM> +1 with changing sparql to include @el

   RESOLUTION: accept test 108 correcting the SPARQL to specify the
   language

-- test 109; xml:base should be ignored

   -> "[58]Test Case #109: xml:base should be ignored in XHTML+RDFa
   1.0" [Manu 2008-05-13]

     [58] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008May/0112.html

   Shane: Michael's question was "should invalid markup generate any
   triples?"

   <msporny> [59]Michael's reply

     [59] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008May/0115.html

   Shane: the answer should be 'no'

   Manu: we don't have a way to test invalid markup

   Shane: parsers are likely to generate triples when they don't
   validate the input

   <msporny> ?

   Shane: I think it's fine to include the test
   ... looking at the specifics;
   ... @xml:base on the root and on the div

   Manu: we're trying to test that @xml:base is ignored and the @about
   value is the subject

   Shane: we're insuring parsers ignore @xml:base

   Shane: we have another test for @base

   <msporny> [ TEST ] Test #72 (approved): Relative URI in @about (with
   XHTML base in head)

   <msporny> [ TEST ] Test #73 (approved): Relative URI in @resource
   (with XHTML base in head)

   <msporny> [ TEST ] Test #74 (approved): Relative URI in @href (with
   XHTML base in head)

   Ralph: I fall on the side of the concern that Michael is expressing
   ... we don't specify behavior for invalid input

   Manu: this question about @xml:base has been raised on the list
   several times
   ... realistically, a lot of parsers will deal with invalid XHTML

   Ralph: how about we add a big XML comment saying this isn't valid
   XHTML

   Shane: I'm not offended by the current form, a comment is fine

   PROPOSE: to accept test 109 with an added XML comment noting this is
   not valid XHTML

   <Ralph> +1

   <Steven> +1

   <ShaneM> +1

   RESOLUTION: to accept test 109 with an added XML comment noting this
   is not valid XHTML

   <ShaneM> PROPOSE: Add a comment to rdfa-syntax that conforming
   parsers are NOT required to generate triples from invalid input.

   <Ralph> absolutely +1

   <Steven> +1

   <msporny> +1

   Shane: this tacitly encourages document authors to make valid
   documents

   RESOLUTION: Add a comment to rdfa-syntax that conforming parsers are
   NOT required to generate triples from invalid input.

   Shane: I'm about to make an updated editor's draft

   <Steven> Regrets for next week

   [adjourned]

   <Steven> I am chairing a conference

   Ralph: regrets for next week too

   <Ralph> [60]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab is now updated

     [60] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab

   <Ralph> Shane, any objection to adding $id$ or $revision$ to the
   vocab namespace document?

   <Ralph> (a visible version identifier)

Summary of Action Items


   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL
   transform transferred to W3C [recorded in
   [61]http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to reach out to Slashdot and attempt to get
   RDFa integrated into Slashdot. [recorded in
   [62]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark to move _:a bnode notation to normative
   section [recorded in
   [63]http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
   [recorded in
   [64]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to determine which useless-triples test
   cases to remove and which to add. [recorded in
   [65]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

     [61] http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01
     [62] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action10
     [63] http://www.w3.org/2008/04/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action05
     [64] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [65] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   [DONE] ACTION: Ben to respond to issue 87 [recorded in
   [66]http://www.w3.org/2008/02/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
   [DONE] ACTION: Manu to e-mail final Christian Hoertnagl response.
   [recorded in
   [67]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
   [DONE] ACTION: Manu to review current on hold test cases and e-mail
   list on what we should do with them. [recorded in
   [68]http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

     [66] http://www.w3.org/2008/02/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action09
     [67] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
     [68] http://www.w3.org/2008/05/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   [End of minutes]
     _____________________________________________________


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