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Re: Identifying to which note a grace note is attached

From: Richard Lanyon <R.Lanyon@steinberg.de>
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 14:10:11 +0100
To: Joe Berkovitz <joe@noteflight.com>
Cc: Bernd Jungmann <bjungmann@t-online.de>,Music Notation Community Group <public-music-notation@w3.org>
Message-ID: <OFAA33897C.49BBC7B1-ONC12581A2.0047226F-802581A2.00485983@LocalDomain>
Hi Joe,

This is something I've looked into a tiny bit. There are a couple of 
"standard" situations I've seen:

i) Grace notes often appear after trills, to indicate the final note of 
the trill, and this could well be at the end of the bar. Sometimes this 
final note is different from either of the notes in the "body" of the 
trill, e.g. Haydn Sonata 42, Adagio, b.17. In some sense these grace notes 
are attached to the previous note semantically, though arguably they 
aren't really grace notes.

ii) Grace notes sometimes appear before barlines, presumably to indicate 
something about how they should be played. Something like Chopin's Mazurka 
Op 30 no 2 even has grace notes both before and after the same barline 
(e.g. bb.38-39). These are semantically still attached to the following 
note, though.

Regards,

Richard



From:   Joe Berkovitz <joe@noteflight.com>
To:     Bernd Jungmann <bjungmann@t-online.de>
Cc:     Music Notation Community Group <public-music-notation@w3.org>
Date:   21/09/2017 13:32
Subject:        Re: Identifying to which note a grace note is attached



Hi Bernd,

I was referring specifically to the case where there is no following 
normal note *within the same measure*. I have not seen examples in the 
literature where grace/appoggiaturas immediately precede a barline, as in 
Simon's example. But it's quite possible that I've missed this. It would 
be great for the MNX effort if you could supply an example of this case 
from the literature.

..            .       .    .  . ...Joe

Joe Berkovitz
Founder
Noteflight LLC

49R Day Street
Somerville MA 02144
USA

"Bring music to life"
www.noteflight.com

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 4:12 PM, Bernd Jungmann <bjungmann@t-online.de> 
wrote:
Hi Joe and Simon,

"not seen in conventional notated music"?

In capella, we support both appoggiatura and passing appoggiatura. In 
German, the terms are Vorschlag and Nachschlag. I find various examples 
for Nachschlag (
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verzierung_(Musik)#Nachschlag, 
http://www.klavier-noten.com/musik-literatur/VERZIERUNGEN.pdf), but none 
for passing appoggiatura. Maybe passing appoggiatura it is not the correct 
English term. But Nachschlag seems to be well known.
In our MusicXML export, we use the steal-time-previous attribute for 
Nachschlag notes, and hope that the steal-time-following attribute 
(documented "as for appoggiaturas"), will be implicitly applied if the 
note has a <grace/> element.

Kind regards,
Bernd Jungmann
www.capella-software.com

Am 20.09.2017 um 19:09 schrieb Joe Berkovitz:
Hi Simon, 

In both notated music and in MusicXML, grace notes and appoggiaturas are 
not "attached" to notes that follow them (although ties or slurs could 
provide such connections, as they do in non-grace-note cases). They simply 
precede the following notes, in their order of occurrence on the page or 
in a document.

If an application has a notion of attachment, that's up to the 
application. MusicXML doesn't need to encode attachment, because music 
notation doesn't have an inherent notion of such attachment.

That second scenario (grace note following normal note at the end of a 
measure) is not seen in conventional notated music. Although one could 
write it and encode it, its interpretation would be unclear to a 
performer. It's not so much that the layout is correct or incorrect, as 
that the conventional interpretation of a grace note or appoggiatura is 
dependent on some normal note that follows it in the same measure.

Hope this helps,

..            .       .    .  . ...Joe

Joe Berkovitz
Founder
Noteflight LLC

49R Day Street
Somerville MA 02144
USA

"Bring music to life"
www.noteflight.com

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Simon Giddings <mr.s.giddings@gmail.com> 
wrote:
Good afternoon,

Firstly, my comprehension of music notation is not extensive, so please 
forgive me if I make any clearly wrong assumptions.

When using notation software, we can add a grace note or appoggiatura to 
either the start of a note or after it.
At this point, we can decide to link the notes with a tie, a slur or 
nothing as in this manner.


I have two questions :
1.      In MusicXML, how can I detect which to note the grace note is 
attached since there is no tie or slur ?
2.      Is this layout correct specifically for the second scenario ?
Best regards
Simon Giddings




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