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Re: Identifying to which note a grace note is attached

From: James Sutton <jsutton@dolphin-com.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 14:20:56 +0100
To: Music Notation Community Group <public-music-notation@w3.org>
Message-Id: <CAA8F467-9102-4692-AA85-0AA6D691E47C@dolphin-com.co.uk>
Behind Bars p. 127 shows an example of graces before the barline

James Sutton
Dolphin Computing
http://www.dolphin-com.co.uk <http://www.dolphin-com.co.uk/>
http://www.seescore.co.uk <http://www.dolphin-com.co.uk/>
http://www.playscore.co <http://www.dolphin-com.co.uk/>




> On 21 Sep 2017, at 14:10, Richard Lanyon <R.Lanyon@steinberg.de> wrote:
> 
> Hi Joe,
> 
> This is something I've looked into a tiny bit. There are a couple of "standard" situations I've seen:
> 
> i) Grace notes often appear after trills, to indicate the final note of the trill, and this could well be at the end of the bar. Sometimes this final note is different from either of the notes in the "body" of the trill, e.g. Haydn Sonata 42, Adagio, b.17. In some sense these grace notes are attached to the previous note semantically, though arguably they aren't really grace notes.
> 
> ii) Grace notes sometimes appear before barlines, presumably to indicate something about how they should be played. Something like Chopin's Mazurka Op 30 no 2 even has grace notes both before and after the same barline (e.g. bb.38-39). These are semantically still attached to the following note, though.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Richard
> 
> 
> 
> From:        Joe Berkovitz <joe@noteflight.com <mailto:joe@noteflight.com>>
> To:        Bernd Jungmann <bjungmann@t-online.de <mailto:bjungmann@t-online.de>>
> Cc:        Music Notation Community Group <public-music-notation@w3.org <mailto:public-music-notation@w3.org>>
> Date:        21/09/2017 13:32
> Subject:        Re: Identifying to which note a grace note is attached
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Bernd,
> 
> I was referring specifically to the case where there is no following normal note *within the same measure*. I have not seen examples in the literature where grace/appoggiaturas immediately precede a barline, as in Simon's example. But it's quite possible that I've missed this. It would be great for the MNX effort if you could supply an example of this case from the literature.
> 
> .            .       .    .  . ...Joe
> 
> Joe Berkovitz
> Founder
> Noteflight LLC
> 
> 49R Day Street
> Somerville MA 02144
> USA
> 
> "Bring music to life"
> www.noteflight.com <http://www.noteflight.com/>
> 
> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 4:12 PM, Bernd Jungmann <bjungmann@t-online.de <mailto:bjungmann@t-online.de>> wrote:
> Hi Joe and Simon,
> 
> "not seen in conventional notated music"?
> 
> In capella, we support both appoggiatura and passing appoggiatura. In German, the terms are Vorschlag and Nachschlag. I find various examples for Nachschlag (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verzierung_(Musik)#Nachschlag <https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verzierung_%28Musik%29#Nachschlag>,http://www.klavier-noten.com/musik-literatur/VERZIERUNGEN.pdf <http://www.klavier-noten.com/musik-literatur/VERZIERUNGEN..pdf>), but none for passing appoggiatura. Maybe passing appoggiatura it is not the correct English term. But Nachschlag seems to be well known.
> In our MusicXML export, we use the steal-time-previous attribute for Nachschlag notes, and hope that the steal-time-following attribute (documented "as for appoggiaturas"), will be implicitly applied if the note has a <grace/> element.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Bernd Jungmann
> www.capella-software.com <http://www.capella-software.com/>
> 
> Am 20.09.2017 um 19:09 schrieb Joe Berkovitz:
> Hi Simon, 
> 
> In both notated music and in MusicXML, grace notes and appoggiaturas are not "attached" to notes that follow them (although ties or slurs could provide such connections, as they do in non-grace-note cases). They simply precede the following notes, in their order of occurrence on the page or in a document.
> 
> If an application has a notion of attachment, that's up to the application. MusicXML doesn't need to encode attachment, because music notation doesn't have an inherent notion of such attachment.
> 
> That second scenario (grace note following normal note at the end of a measure) is not seen in conventional notated music. Although one could write it and encode it, its interpretation would be unclear to a performer. It's not so much that the layout is correct or incorrect, as that the conventional interpretation of a grace note or appoggiatura is dependent on some normal note that follows it in the same measure.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> .            .       .    .  . ...Joe
> 
> Joe Berkovitz
> Founder
> Noteflight LLC
> 
> 49R Day Street <https://maps.google.com/?q=49R+Day+Street+%0D+Somerville+MA+02144+%0D+USA&entry=gmail&source=g>
> Somerville MA 02144
> USA
> 
> "Bring music to life"
> www.noteflight.com <http://www.noteflight.com/>
> 
> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Simon Giddings <mr.s.giddings@gmail.com <mailto:mr.s.giddings@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Good afternoon,
> 
> Firstly, my comprehension of music notation is not extensive, so please forgive me if I make any clearly wrong assumptions.
> 
> When using notation software, we can add a grace note or appoggiatura to either the start of a note or after it.
> At this point, we can decide to link the notes with a tie, a slur or nothing as in this manner.
> <Mail Attachment.png>
> 
> I have two questions :
> 1.        In MusicXML, how can I detect which to note the grace note is attached since there is no tie or slur ?
> 2.        Is this layout correct specifically for the second scenario ?
> Best regards
> Simon Giddings
> 
> 
> 
> 
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