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Re: Korean-specific CSS issues to be discussed

From: Channy Yun <channy@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:40:59 +0900
Message-ID: <AANLkTikZgLRq9Vb2H5mOJem9323mzK5ScZ9Ah2LCE+5D@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Kang-Hao (Kenny) Lu" <kennyluck@w3.org>
Cc: HTML Korean Interest Group <public-html-ig-ko@w3.org>, ML public-i18n-core <public-i18n-core@w3.org>, fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
Hi, Kenny.

This is Channy Yun, an invited expert of HTML W/G. I wasn't familiar with
CSS3 specification, but I gave some feedback with Mr. Oli about <ruby> of

1. CSS vertical
Actually it has disappeared the Korean vertical typesetting since 1999. Now
there are only type setting from left to right in Korea. So I think Korea is
exceptional case from CJK.

2. CSS List
In spacing words in Korean numbers, 서른 둘 is wrong, but 서른둘 is right. It's
right of spacing by 만(萬, 10,000) scale. For examle, 10,001 is 일만 일 (O),
일만일(X) and 9999 is 구천구백구십구(O) and 구천 구백 구십 구(X). So, CSS List is only for
100 and in case of 99, 구십구 is right.


* Biomedical Knowledge Engineering Laboratory http://bike.snu.ac.kr
* Daum Developers Network & Affiliates http://dna.daum.net

On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 11:57 PM, Kang-Hao (Kenny) Lu <kennyluck@w3.org>wrote:

> Hello Korean friends,
> My name is Kang-Hao (Kenny) Lu and I am a Chinese speaker working for W3C
> on, partially, internationalization on Web. It's very proud to see you
> having fruitful discussion about cutting edge HTML5 features and news (like
> the one about h.264 :) ). As CSS is essential to the Web but it is still far
> from complete in terms of its multilingual support, I would like to invite
> you to review CSS specs that have Korean-specific features. Notably,
> * CSS 3 Text[1] - a CSS module for multilingual text support, currently
> under heavy revision.
> * CSS 3 List[2] - a CSS module for lists. It has not been updated for many
> years but CSS WG just appointed a new editor to work on it
> [1] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/
> [2] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-lists/
> To review the specs, basically you can just do a text search on the
> keywords "Korean", "Hangul" to find the relevant parts. Please don't be
> surprised when you find unexpected description of Korean (I was surprised
> the first time I read the parts about Chinese :) ) because the editors
> wouldn't be able to know every detail about every language, and that's why
> we need your help. There are actually several specific questions in these
> specs, but of course your discussions are not limited to these:
> 1.
> For vertical writing in Korean, on which side do you put an underline on.
> The current draft says it should be put on the right (see
> 'text-underline-postion: auto' [3]), but my experiment[4][5][6] with IE
> shows something different. Which is correct? A real world picture, even from
> an old book, might tell a lot.
> [3] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/#text-underline-position
> [4] http://www.w3.org/People/kennyluck/Test/underline-pos
> [5] http://www.w3.org/People/kennyluck/Test/underline-pos.ie7
> (the forces the page to be displayed in IE7 legacy mode and you can see the
> underline for Japanese is on the right but it's on the left for Korean)
> [6] http://www.w3.org/People/kennyluck/Test/underline-pos.ie8
> 2.
> For CSS 3 List, several changes have been suggested by a researcher from
> Microsoft[7]. You are encouraged to review the document as a whole. But the
> editor has a particular concern about 'hangul-legal'. Here's our
> conversation
> [[
> Tabatkins: kennyluck: Thanks a lot for the pointer back to that document
> about cjk fixes!  I had forgetten about it.  Question for you guys when you
> review - is it intentional that hangul-legal doesn't have it's own version
> of the second digit marker?  Right now only the second digit marker, and the
> digits themselves, are falling back to cjk-ideographic.  That feels like a
> possible error.
> kennyluck: TabAtkins: I am not a Korean, but I my guess is that
> Hangul-legal uses a tweak version of the cjk-ideographic algorithm.
> kennyluck: 3. For each group, ignoring digits that have the value zero,
> append the second
> kennyluck: digit marker to the second digit, the third digit marker to the
> third digit, and
> kennyluck: the fourth digit marker to the fourth digit. These markers are
> defined in the
> kennyluck: tables for the specific numbering systems. The first digit has
> no marker.
> kennyluck: Perhaps "append the second digit marker to the second digit"
> does not apply to Hangul-legal, since it does not have it's version of the
> second digit marker.
> kennyluck: so for example, if 40032 is to converted to Hangul-legal.
> kennyluck: the "32" part became 3 2 and then 서른 둘
> kennyluck: instead of 3 + the second digit marker + 2
> kennyluck: 서른 and 둘 are from the table with the caption "For values between
> 1 and 99, appropriate digits are picked from the following list (at most one
> per column) and written in descending order by value. "
> tabatkins: kennyluck: If that's true (about hangul-legal not having a
> second digit marker) I'd need that clarified.  Right now my plan is to just
> treat it as all the other cjk systems, with a fallback to the specified
> additive system for numbers below 100.
> ]]
> You might also want to think about how useful this particular list type is.
> [7] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Feb/0153  (the
> attachement)
> 3.
> "word-break:keep-all" seems to be used quite often in Korean, to disallow
> breaks in a series of Hangul not separated by white spaces. What should
> happen when "word-break:keep-all" is applied with "word-wrap: normal"[8]?
> (word-wrap is a property that triggers "emergency wrapping" and normal is
> its default value)
> For example, if you apply "word-break:keep-all" to, say, "안녕하세요" and then
> shrink the window until the window is smaller than "안녕하세 요". Should "안녕하세요"
> be split? I haven't tried it myself but you are encouraged to do some
> experiments.
> Notice that the current draft says yes but previous version[9] said no.
> [8] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/#word-wrap
> [9]
> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/csswg/css3-text/Overview.html?rev=1.17&content-type=text/html;%20charset=iso-8859-1#word-wrap0<http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/csswg/css3-text/Overview.html?rev=1.17&content-type=text/html;%20charset=iso-8859-1#word-wrap0>
> You are encouraged to discuss these in Korean. After you have some
> conclusions about these issues, you are encourage to send feedback to the
> mailng list www-style [10] and Cc public-i18n-cjk [11]  list.
> [10] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/
> [11] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-cjk
> Sorry for not being able to write this email in Korean. Translation of this
> mail will be much appreciated!
> Cheers,
> Kenny
> W3C, Internationalization Working Group Member
Received on Thursday, 20 January 2011 04:42:29 UTC

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