W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html@w3.org > March 2011

Re: ISSUE-155 counter proposal

From: Tab Atkins Jr. <jackalmage@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 09:00:36 -0700
Message-ID: <AANLkTinWbhKPQfUzKko0v82MC8DMH=4O2vLoV=6z96Aq@mail.gmail.com>
To: Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>
Cc: Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>, public-html@w3.org
On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 7:03 AM, Leif Halvard Silli
<xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no> wrote:
> Tab Atkins Jr., Wed, 23 Mar 2011 06:25:13 -0700:
>> On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 3:13 AM, Leif Halvard Silli
>> <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no> wrote:
>>> Ian Hickson, Wed, 23 Mar 2011 04:06:47 +0000 (UTC):
>>>  [...]
>>>
>>>> RATIONALE
>>>  [...]
>>>> Non-CSS UAs [ snip ] can already draw table
>>>> borders on tables, so adding a presentational attribute for this purpose
>>>> adds nothing for them. [...]
>>>
>>> What use is there in having non-CSS UAs that are able to draw borders,
>>> if authors aren't allowed to use the very HTML feature that triggers
>>> them to actually draw them?
>>>
>>> Non-CSS UAS do not draw a single border unless one sets the border
>>> attribute to a non-zero value. The default styling of tables, is to not
>>> display the border.
>>
>> The point is that non-CSS UAs can (and, apparently, *should*)
>
> Were is the "apparently" coming from?

It seems apparent that non-CSS UAs should display a border on tables
automatically.


>> do this
>> as part of their default stylesheet.  The "default styling of tables"
>> is a UA-specific setting.  HTML recommends a certain UA stylesheet but
>> does not require it, and non-CSS UAs can't implement it in the first
>> place (as they don't use UA stylesheets).
>
> Could you clarify?
>
> EITHER: Do you claim that all user agents, whether they support CSS or
> not, _should_ default to display the borders? (This would mean that
> non-CSS UAs would *always* display borders.)
>
> OR: Do you claim that non-CSS UAs (but no CSS UAs) should default to
> display the borders? (This would, as well, mean that non-CSS UAs would
> *always* display borders.)

This latter one.  It's well-established that CSS UAs shouldn't display
a border by default (changing that now would likely mess up sites that
don't expect the table to suddenly get slightly wider).  But non-CSS
UAs should default to always displaying a border, unless they have
some alternate way to apply styling besides CSS.


> ALSO: Can you point to a place in HTML5 which claims the same thing
> that you claim?

What am I claiming that needs justification?


> NOTE: I have a vague feeling that you and Ian are of the opinion that
> if a user agent support the border attribute, then it support CSS, only
> not with the correct syntax. Am I on to something?

No, that's not what I'm assuming.  (Though, visual HTML UAs pretty
much all support CSS, so it may be considered trivially true.)

My goal is to not require authors to use presentational markup solely
for low-functionality UAs, when those UAs can instead change their
default rendering and make tables work for *all* users.  I want to
avoid a situation where only the subset of authors who know to add
border="1" to their tables get decent rendering.

Of course, right now no one gets decent table rendering in many
non-CSS UAs.  This is an indication that this is probably not a very
important issue in the first place.  If it is sufficiently important
to care about, though, it should be addressed in a way that
automatically solves the issue for everyone.

~TJ
Received on Wednesday, 23 March 2011 16:01:28 GMT

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