W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html@w3.org > January 2008

{minutes} HTML WG teleconference 2008-01-24

From: Michael(tm) Smith <mike@w3.org>
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:34:04 +0900
To: public-html@w3.org
Message-ID: <20080124183402.GH18827@sideshowbarker>
http://www.w3.org/2008/01/24-html-wg-minutes.html

Agenda

  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2008JanMar/0011.html

See also: IRC log

  http://www.w3.org/2008/01/24-html-wg-irc

  Present
      Julian, Sam_Kuper, DanC, anne, MikeSmith, shepazu, Gregory,
      ChrisWilson, Samuel

  Regrets
      Marcin

  Chair
      DanC

  Scribe
      MikeSmith

  * Topics
      1. agenda bashing
      2. Convene HTML WG teleconference of 2008-01-24T17:00:00Z
      3. scope, requirements, and modularity
         http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/2
      4. follow-up on the HTML 5 release, handling comments
      5. heartbeat requirement
      6. HTML 5 authoring guide
         http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/5
      7. aria-role ISSUE-14 (edit)
      8. next meeting... 31 Jan?
      9. phrase-level and semantic element discussion...
         separate mailing list?

  * Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________

agenda bashing

   DanC: going around the table in Zakim order

   Julian: I'm interested in talking about the modularity issue

   Sam: I have no preferences at the moment, first telcon I've joined,
   I have no preferences

   DanC: I think the HTML5 spec release is worth a little partying

   shepazu: interested in modularity but I don't want to drive the
   meeting

Convene HTML WG teleconference of 2008-01-24T17:00:00Z

   DanC: I need to be out of here at 12:00 central

scope, requirements, and modularity
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/2

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/2

   <DanC> Simple things make firm foundations

      http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/01/modularity.html

   DanC: one side note related to modularity is in W3 Q&A weblog

   <DanC> TAG blog

      http://www.w3.org/blog/tag/

   DanC: from W3C Director Tim Berners-Lee

   <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/01/modularity.html

      http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/01/modularity.html

   anne: I read that as saying that it could be *implemented* in a
   modular way
   ... not necessarily written in a modular way

   <DanC> action-13?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-13 -- Chris Wilson to talk to WebAPI and WAF
   WGs about their role in offline API stuff and how they work with and
   contribute to the discussion -- due 2008-02-05 -- OPEN

   <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/13

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/13

   ChrisWilson: no progress on that yet

   <DanC> action-14?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-14 -- Chris Wilson to get more information on
   MS patent review with <canvas> -- due 2008-03-01 -- OPEN

   <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/14

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/14

   ChrisWilson: This obviously is in progress but I won't have anything
   to say until our legal team gets back
   ... March 1st is probably before they will be done, but I don't want
   to drop it

   <DanC> action-14?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-14 -- Chris Wilson to get more information on
   MS patent review with <canvas> -- due 2008-05-01 -- OPEN

   <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/14

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/14

   <DanC> action-27?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-27 -- Dan Connolly to draft a Memorandum of
   Understanding (MoU) with microformats.org regarding @rel values --
   due 2008-01-31 -- OPEN

   <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/27

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/27

   DanC: a little progress on this ...
   ... I talked with Rigo Wenning
   ... he's interested in having the registry at W3C
   ... also David Orchard of BEA
   ... I continue to investigate the microformats.org
   ... wondering for example what would happen if they get sued

   <DanC> action-38?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-38 -- Dan Connolly to chairs to review need for
   amending charter with Director -- due 2008-01-24 -- OPEN

   <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/38

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/38

   DanC: hmm, due today... I guess we're not done with that

   ChrisWilson: right, I don't think we've reached a conclusion on that

   DanC: I'm gonna get progress on that in the next week, most likely

   <DanC> action-41?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-41 -- Dan Connolly to consider a new
   requirements issue about the overlap with HTTP -- due 2008-01-10 --
   PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/41

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/41

   DanC: time with ... Tim maybe today

   <DanC> action-28?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-28 -- Dan Connolly to consult with the
   Hypertext CG and W3C management about how much time W3C member
   organizations should be allowed to study the patent implications of
   an HTML 5 spec 1st WD -- due 2007-12-19 -- CLOSED

   <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/28

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/28

   <DanC> issue-28?

   <trackbot-ng> ISSUE-28 -- Content type rules in HTML 5 overlaps with
   the HTTP specification? -- OPEN

   <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/28

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/28

   DanC: basically, I almost did an Internet Draft back in August
   ... I've not checked what impact if any this might have on the HTML
   spec

   trackbot-ng, close action-41

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-41 Consider a new requirements issue about the
   overlap with HTTP closed

   DanC: Julian, you expressed some interest in that?

   Julian: the content-type sniffing thing?

   DanC: yeah

   Julian: yeah, let's talk about it now
   ... issue is that HTML spec mandates content-type sniffing ...
   ... while the HTTP spec and TAG document prohibit it

   DanC: I would really like a test case

   Julian: I think Ian Hickson has a big set of test cases
   ... related to this

   Hixie ?

   DanC: anybody got a URL for that?

   <Julian> test cases:
   http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/

      http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/

   DanC: would like EARL reports on these
   ... would like review by the HTTP working group

   Julian: We have the argument that, on the one hand, the specs
   require to trust the content-type that is given
   ... but the HTML spec requiring UAs not to do that

   <gsnedders> Julian: didn't you mean
   http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/ ?

      http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/

   Julian: also the ongoing discussing about if a UA is required to
   report discrepancies if it does sniffing and finds them

   <DanC> trackbot-ng, status

   <gsnedders> (the ones in the parent folder merely check it obeys the
   given content-type in some cases)

   <Julian> gsnedders: yeah

   <DanC> . ACTION: Julian to investigate expected results to
   http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/ tests in
   collaboration with the IETF HTTP WG

      http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/

   <gsnedders> DanC:
   http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/ it
   should be

      http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/

   <DanC> ACTION: Julian to investigate expected results to
   http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/
   tests in collaboration with the IETF HTTP WG [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2008/01/24-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]

      http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/

   <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-44 - Investigate expected results to
   http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/
   tests in collaboration with the IETF HTTP WG [on Julian Reschke -
   due 2008-01-31].

      http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/

   Julian: looking at that, it seems like the tests may actually have
   expected results stated

   <DanC> ACTION: Dan to developer EARL/hReview reports based on
   http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/ from
   a handful of user agents [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2008/01/24-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]

      http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/

   <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-45 - Developer EARL/hReview reports
   based on
   http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/ from
   a handful of user agents [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-01-31].

      http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/

   DanC: so much for that

   <DanC> issue-29?

   <trackbot-ng> ISSUE-29 -- Should the HTML 5 specification introduce
   URI schemes such as javascript:? -- OPEN

   <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/29

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/29

   DanC: I might have jumped the gun on this on a little bit

   <gsnedders> for javascript: the normal parsing rules for URIs can't
   apply, because it relies on all kinds of behaviour

   DanC: anne clarified that there may be a separate draft spec related
   to this

   <ChrisWilson> hmmm...that explains why I wasn't getting any updates.

   DanC: we should decide as a working group whether that's in scope
   ... anybody want to take action on that?

   anne: what kind of action?

   shepazu: leaving it in the "someday" pile means it stays in the spec
   ...

   <DanC> (roll call isn't critical for this meeting, since decisions
   aren't binding)

   <anne>
   http://www.websitedev.de/ietf/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-ri-00.t
   xt

      http://www.websitedev.de/ietf/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-ri-00.txt

   <anne> October 28, 2006

   anne: there is no "01"

   DanC: somebody should ping Bjoern about it

   Julian: yeah, I can do that
   ... I think the javascript URI thing never went anywhere ...
   ... because nobody agreed it could [identify] a resource

   <DanC> ACTION: Julian ask B. Hoehrmann about any plans to update
   http://www.websitedev.de/ietf/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-ri-00.t
   xt [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2008/01/24-html-wg-minutes.html#action03]

      http://www.websitedev.de/ietf/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-ri-00.txt

   <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-46 - Ask B. Hoehrmann about any plans
   to update
   http://www.websitedev.de/ietf/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-ri-00.t
   xt [on Julian Reschke - due 2008-01-31].

      http://www.websitedev.de/ietf/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-ri-00.txt

   <Julian>
   http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-scheme-00

      http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-scheme-00

   DanC: anybody know if javascript: is used outside of a@href ?
   ... used outside of HTML ?

   <shepazu> I'm not sure that "javascript:" is much different in
   respect to defining a resource than "data:uri"

   ChrisWilson: in Favorites

   anne: also in SVG

follow-up on the HTML 5 release, handling comments

   DanC: user-agent community has already to my satisfaction
   demonstrated that it could be used [like? as?] a URI
   ... anybody sees Paul Krill's article?

   <oedipus> there are MANY examples in the wild of javascript: being
   used as a pseudo-HREF -- javascript:var popupwin=this.window.open
   etc.

   http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/01/22/W3C-offers-HTML-5-draf
   t_1.html

      http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/01/22/W3C-offers-HTML-5-draft_1.html

   <DanC> krill article
   http://www.infoworld.com/archives/emailPrint.jsp?R=printThis&A=/
   article/08/01/22/W3C-offers-HTML-5-draft_1.html

      http://www.infoworld.com/archives/emailPrint.jsp?R=printThis&A=/article/08/01/22/W3C-offers-HTML-5-draft_1.html

   [[

   "The most interesting thing will be what happens when those
   capabilities get into native HTML and what impact that has on the
   rich Internet development market," he said. Specific plug-in
   technologies are not supported on every platform, he said.
   "[Thusly], as a developer I might be more interested in writing HTML
   5," Hammond said.

   ]]

   <DanC> -- Jeffrey Hammond

   <DanC> not even idiot comments:
   http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/08/01/22/175243.shtml

      http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/08/01/22/175243.shtml

   DanC: and HTML5 got on Slashdot...

   <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/

      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/

   DanC: so this publication has actually generated comments on the
   public-html-comments list
   ... If you respond to comments there, make it clear that you are not
   responding on behalf of the working group
   ... the only way to respond on behalf of the group is to quote an
   actual working-group decision

   <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to comment on that article and to
   suggest we encourage members of the WG to subscribe to the comments
   list

   <anne>
   http://cgi.w3.org/member-bin/MailingListQuery.pl?queryList=publi
   c-html-comments says 41

      http://cgi.w3.org/member-bin/MailingListQuery.pl?queryList=public-html-comments

   <oedipus> GJR: mikeTMsmith, although it is a top-level link on the
   HTML WG page, most people don't know of its existence and even
   though in the spec, people diving down into details and skipping the
   intro, which is human nature, which cannot be changed....

heartbeat requirement

   oedipus - true that

   <DanC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/3

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/3

   <oedipus> mikeTMsmith - it's the danger of checklists and best
   practices documents -- people work off of them, rather than the
   actual TR

   <DanC> issue-19?

   <trackbot-ng> ISSUE-19 -- HTML 5 specification 1st release as W3C WD
   -- CLOSED

   <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/19

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/19

   DanC: product3 in tracker is W3C publications

   <gsnedders> MikeSmith: action-37 can be closed

   April 22

   DanC: what's the next draft anybody wants to see published?

   ChrisWilson: I would like to put in a request to not re-publish the
   spec every 3 months
   ... (because of need to do patent review)

   <gsnedders> I don't think it's worthwhile republishing the spec
   every 3 months, but what other documents do we have that change
   enough to be worthwhile publishing?

   ChrisWilson: we either have to do a patent review every time we
   publish the spec, or we have to agree before publishing [about all
   changes that go into the spec between publications]

   <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask if WCAG (web content
   accessibility guidelines - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL and ATAG
   (authoring tool accessibility wg - http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU) has
   been

      http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL
      http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU)

HTML 5 authoring guide http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/5

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/5

   <oedipus> has WCAG (web content accessibility guidelines -
   http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL and ATAG (authoring tool accessibility
   wg - http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU) has been approached about working
   with HTML WG with on authoring guidelines? that is what these groups
   do, and both have expressed willingness to work with the HTML WG on
   such documentation

      http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL
      http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU)

   GR: has the WAI authoring-tool group or [other WAI group] been
   approached about collaborating?

   DanC: not been approached to my knowledge

   GR: I have talked to them, but I think they want somebody other than
   me [from the HTML WG] to approach them

   DanC: they are hereby welcomed

   <DanC> trackbot-ng, status

   <DanC> ACTION: Gregory: invite ATAG and WCAG WGs to help with HTML 5
   authoring guidelines [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2008/01/24-html-wg-minutes.html#action04]

   <trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Gregory:

   <oedipus> DanC, use wai-liaison@w3.org and what other public list

   <DanC> ACTION: Gregory invite ATAG and WCAG WGs to help with HTML 5
   authoring guidelines [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2008/01/24-html-wg-minutes.html#action05]

   <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-47 - Invite ATAG and WCAG WGs to help
   with HTML 5 authoring guidelines [on Gregory Rosmaita - due
   2008-01-31].

   action-37?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-37 -- Michael(tm) Smith to announce Planet
   HTML5 on public-html-announce, http://www.w3.org/html/, wherever
   else appropriate -- due 2008-01-24 -- OPEN

      http://www.w3.org/html/

   <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/37

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/37

   <DanC> action-29

   <DanC> action-29?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-29 -- Dan Connolly to follow up on the idea of
   a free-software-compatible license for a note on HTML authoring --
   due 2008-01-31 -- OPEN

   <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/29

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/29

   trackbot-ng, close action-37

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-37 Announce Planet HTML5 on
   public-html-announce, http://www.w3.org/html/, wherever else
   appropriate closed

      http://www.w3.org/html/

   DanC: I did follow up on action-29 ...
   ... it has gone up the tree ...
   ... I don't know if it has gone up to the Pope yet ...
   ... I did not push it [all the way] up the hill yet

   <oedipus> GJR: if DanC wants to play sissyphus than he will plus one

   Sam: I encourage you to pursue it, Dan

   <oedipus> GJR: am checking what ATAG documents do...

   DanC: use case: sometimes it's useful for certain kinds of
   applications to emit messages that quote parts of W3C specs ...
   ... [but applications are currently not free to do that because of
   W3C license restrictions]

   anne: [there is some precedent for dual licensing]

   <DanC> action-32?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-32 -- Michael(tm) Smith to change the product
   name of "HTML 5 authoring guidelines" in the tracker to something
   else, eventually -- due 2008-01-24 -- OPEN

   <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/32

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/32

   shepazu: some in AC may be concerned about it setting a precedent

   trackbot-ng, close action-32

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-32 Change the product name of "HTML 5 authoring
   guidelines" in the tracker to something else, eventually closed

   <DanC> action-33?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-33 -- Chris Wilson to investigate an HTML WG
   blog, a la the way the I18N WG does it -- due 2008-02-05 -- OPEN

   <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/33

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/33

   <shepazu> that's just my opinion, not a team stance

   <gavin> e/win 26

   anne: value of an HTML WG blog might be a place for people to blog
   about HTML5 instead of just on their blog
   ... I think Planet HTML5 is good enough

   ChrisWilson: Planet HTML5 is just aggregating blogs from elsewhere
   ...

   DanC: so far only the chairs are authorized to speak on behalf of
   the WG

   <DanC> close action-33

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-33 Investigate an HTML WG blog, a la the way
   the I18N WG does it closed

   <DanC> action-34?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-34 -- Lachlan Hunt to prepare "Web Developer's
   Guide to HTML5" for publication in some way, as discussed on
   2007-11-28 phone conference -- due 2008-01-31 -- OPEN

   <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/34

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/34

   Lachy ?

   you around?

   <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to mention mechanism that Planet HTML5

   <DanC> (I think the mechanism Mike is mentioning is documented in
   recent mail to public-html )

   <DanC> (a pointer would be nice...)

aria-role ISSUE-14 (edit)

   <oedipus> GJR's ARIA status report:

   <oedipus> ARIA Suite will now contain: 1) ARIA Roadmap; 2) Roles,
   States, and Properties for Accessible Rich Internet Applications
   (combination of 2 previously separate documents); 3) ARIA Best
   Practices; and 4) ARIA Primer (new)

   <oedipus> two approaches to embedding ARIA:

   <oedipus> 1) no namespaces, no prefixes -- host languages reserve
   all attribute names matching the pattern aria-*. This allows the
   ARIA states and properties to be controlled by the PFWG
   specification, including future maintenance.

   <oedipus> 2) by Namespaces in XML -- Role Attribute Module () will
   give @role a 'home' namespace from which it can be cited using the
   Namespaces in XML Recommendation technique, so that ARIA can be used
   in DIAL and other dialects of XHTML, which are likely to be used
   primarily to feed middleware, as there is no immediate prospect of
   this technology being picked up widely by browsers any time soon

   <oedipus> testing - collaborative matrix (ARIA Test Tests) being
   maintained at: http://html4all.org/wiki/index.php/ARIATestTests

      http://html4all.org/wiki/index.php/ARIATestTests

   <oedipus> problem: links to Best Practices document (no public draft
   yet) and the 2 drafts that are now one, but are not yet public

   <DanC> (I strongly encourage you to migrate from html4all.org to the
   esw.w3.org wiki)

   oedipus: only reason it's at html4all is that esw wiki doesn't allow
   hyperlinks in <dt>

   <DanC> ACTION-23?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-23 -- Gregory Rosmaita to coordinate tests
   using ARIA -- due 2008-01-31 -- PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/23

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/23

   oedipus: I have to keep it open until new drafts come out ...

next meeting... 31 Jan?

   oedipus: because there have been changes

   ChrisWilson: can't chair on 31st because I'll be at Web Directions
   North

   DanC: I can't either
   ... propose to cancel 31 January and I can chair on 7 Feb

   <DanC> so resolved

   [adjourned]

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Dan to developer EARL/hReview reports based on
   http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/ from
   a handful of user agents [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2008/01/24-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]
   [NEW] ACTION: Gregory invite ATAG and WCAG WGs to help with HTML 5
   authoring guidelines [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2008/01/24-html-wg-minutes.html#action05]
   [NEW] ACTION: Gregory: invite ATAG and WCAG WGs to help with HTML 5
   authoring guidelines [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2008/01/24-html-wg-minutes.html#action04]
   [NEW] ACTION: Julian ask B. Hoehrmann about any plans to update
   http://www.websitedev.de/ietf/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-ri-00.txt
   [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2008/01/24-html-wg-minutes.html#action03]
   [NEW] ACTION: Julian to investigate expected results to
   http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/
   tests in collaboration with the IETF HTTP WG [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2008/01/24-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]

      http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/
      http://www.websitedev.de/ietf/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-ri-00.txt
      http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/

-- 
Michael(tm) Smith
http://people.w3.org/mike/
http://sideshowbarker.net/

Received on Thursday, 24 January 2008 18:34:39 UTC

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