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Minutes, HTML WG 2007-08-02 phone conference

From: Michael(tm) Smith <mike@w3.org>
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 03:54:39 +0900
To: public-html@w3.org
Message-ID: <20070802185434.GA2948@mikesmith>
http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-minutes.html

Agenda
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0071.html

See also: IRC log
   http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-irc

Present
      DanC, Julian, Gregory_Rosmaita, Marcin, MikeSmith,
      Dave_Singer, chaals, mjs[last_10_minutes], Lachy[IRC_only],
      Sander[IRC_only]

Regrets
      Hixie

Chair
      Dan Connolly

Scribe
      MikeSmith

* Topics
   1. Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-08-02T17:00:00Z
   2. next meeting, regular meeting times
   3. Email traffic shaping, working style
   4. toward release of Design Principles
   5. Detailed Spec Reviews, progress update
   6. toward release of Design Principles
   7. Test suite organization
   8. definitions, accessibility, etc.
   9. toward release of Design Principles

* Summary of Action Items
  _________________________________________________________

Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-08-02T17:00:00Z

   <DanC> minutes 19 July

      http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-html-wg-minutes

   <DanC> updates to http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SpecReviews are
   most welcome, everybody

      http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SpecReviews

next meeting, regular meeting times

   DanC: Key thing is to pick a time that Chris Wilson can make, but
   don't have a good idea of his schedule right now ...

   <DanC> any advice on a Seattle/OZ/Asia time, Lachy/

   DanC: Gregory, Marcin, this time seems to be good for you (because
   you've made it more than once) ...

   <DanC> FYI, I'm going to "An Event Apart" in Chicago late in August

   DanC: [considering 16 August]
   ... I'll be at Event Apart, btw

   <DanC> PROPOSED: to meet 1st and 3rd Thursdays of the month at 11am
   Boston time; next meeting 16 Aug

   [currently 02:10am in Japan]

   DanC: Any reason not to schedule next call for 16 August?

   <DanC> RESOLVED: to meet 1st and 3rd Thursdays of the month at 11am
   Boston time; next meeting 16 Aug

   <DanC> ACTION: ChrisW to try to find a Seattle/OZ/Asia time
   [CONTINUES] [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]

   <DanC> note Lachy suggests a time 6 hours earlier for
   Seattle/OZ/Asia. I trust Chris W will read the record of this
   meeting

Email traffic shaping, working style

   DanC: Hopefully, we will get an update from Chris Wilson, but
   lacking that, I will chair on the 16th
   ... Our strategy has been to reward the sort of e-mail I like, and
   ignore the rest ...

   <Dave_Singer> I do wonder if we should have a separate low-volume
   list for organizational and other 'formal' emails

   DanC: but that has not proven satisfactory to a lot of people
   ... I have heard from lots of people, that yeah, the HTML working
   group [mailing list] is no fun to work with
   ... I will go around the table, as it were, [to ask for thoughts]

   Gregory: Getting people to consciously put things up on the
   e-mail-thread part of the Wiki ...

   DanC: Only works in practice if people actually do the work

   Gregory: We are all talking around each other [still] instead of
   talking to each other ...

   <Gregory> working towards a common HTML WG vocabulary:
   http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/CommonVocabularyAndDefinitions

      http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/CommonVocabularyAndDefinitions

   DanC: I think lots of people usefully followed up [on the "formal
   complaint" thread]

   Julian: I think it was good that the topic has been raised ...
   ... although commenting on discussions that have taken place on IRC
   is [perhaps going off a bit?]

   Marcin comments

   <DanC> poll is any thoughts on this agendum, # Email traffic
   shaping, working style

   <Lachy> personally, I think the formal complaint went too far, but I
   think it needs to be pointed out that there are people on both sides
   of the issues at fault (I took up the issue off list with some),
   each influencing the replies of the other and causing things to
   escalate

   <Gregory> underlying problem is that there are 2 tracks of
   discussion -- W3C and WHAT WG; now that HTML5 been accepted into W3C
   process, shouldn't formal (on-list) conversations be conducted on
   public-html so as to avoid bifurcation of efforts and cowpaths; WHAT
   WG has every right to exist and conduct conversations, but when the
   development path of HTML is concerned, the normative discussion
   forum should be public-html

   MikeSmith I think we should put boundaries on the discussion on the
   list ...

   scribe: for example, decide to limit the list discussion to just
   discussion of the interoperable behavior for existing elements ...
   ... and not discuss new elements nor discuss which elements should
   be conformant and which not

   Dave_Singer: I think it would not be out of line for the chairs to
   call people out if they are intemperate
   ... in their comments on the list
   ... and I think it would be useful to have a separate list [for
   certain kinds of messages] ...
   ... because it's hard to tell [which messages to read] ...

   chaals: I think it would be good for the chairs to be more active on
   the list ...
   ... [good to] reduce the overall volume of messages on the list ...

   <DanC> (hmm... did I start a FAQ? I was thinking about putting some
   advice in http://esw.w3.org/topic/MailingLists ... )

      http://esw.w3.org/topic/MailingLists

   chaals: [encourage people to] treat each other with the kind of
   politeness and respect [that encourages further discussion on the
   list] ...
   ... people are terrified by the [current] volume of mail on the list
   ...
   ... opportunity for the chairs ...
   ... people need to realize -- that large parts of the community
   won't participate if they perceive the list environment as
   unfriendly ...
   ... and that will be our loss [because we want them to participate]
   ...

   [chaals discussing value of having a separate list for
   announcements]

   scribe: having that separate list and using it to make periodic
   (fortnight or monthly) announcements of a draft with some collected
   change notice would make it more reasonable way for people to follow
   the work of the group ...

   Gregory: Anything that is normative should occur on public-html ...
   ... because no everybody is subscribed to the whatwg list ...

   DanC: I assume our official mechanism is public-html ...

   <Gregory> plus one on announcement list

   DanC: on the other hand, there is actually HTML discussion taking
   place all over the place
   ... An announcement list [might] be a good idea ...
   ... I read a minority of the e-mail ...

   <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2007/01/HTML-WebAPI-position.html

      http://www.w3.org/2007/01/HTML-WebAPI-position.html

   DanC: there are long threads that go off into the weeds ...

   <Dave_Singer> indicate that you are willing to admonish if asked
   PRIVATELY

   <Dave_Singer> ?

   DanC: I expect other people to read those ...
   ... I read a much as I would expect a normal working-group member
   would read ...
   ... As far as taking people to task, Karl has been doing that ...
   ... e-mailing them directly, Cc'ing Chris and me
   ... Any ideas about the announcements mailing list?

   <Lachy> I manage to read less than half of the volume on public-html

   <DanC> ACTION: DanC to set up an announcement mailing list, noodling
   with chaals [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]

   chaals: Would also be useful to send out info about resolutions on
   the "announcements" list ...
   ... [case of people reading on the announcements list in order to
   figure out what's happened on the list during a particular period of
   time]

   DanC: Summaries of changes is something I think others can help
   Hixie with

   DanC, I do

   <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to respond to MikeSmith's suggestion of
   more focus and to respond to announcement of drafts, and noodle on
   summaries of cvs/svn logs

   MikeSmith: There were no commits to the spec during July
   ... since June 28

   <Dave_Singer> the announcement list should be moderated, by the way
   (if possible)

   <Dave_Singer> and though I hate reply-to headers, if there is one,
   reply-to public-html

   DanC: [as far as shaping discussion], When you [explicitly] tell
   people to not think about elephants, they tend to think about
   elephants

   chaals: Saying, what exists in HTML 4, what exists in HTML5 [as
   limits for the current discussions] ...
   ... saying, otherwise, identify the problem [that you are trying to
   address in your message]
   ... saying, we are really trying to spec out HTML5 [and not digress
   into discussions about what is not implemented or not likely to be
   implemented any time soon] ...

   DanC thinks it's good suggestion to talk about limiting discussion
   ...

   scribe: but hasn't figured out how best to do it yet

   Julian: Helpful to have a statement of things that are clearly out
   of scope for the group ...

   DanC: Anything that is not in the charter is out of scope.
   ... for example, transport protocols are clearly not in scope

toward release of Design Principles

Detailed Spec Reviews, progress update

   <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/MailingLists

      http://esw.w3.org/topic/MailingLists

   <scribe> ACTION: MikeSmith to write up a summary of changes for last
   [period of time], description of where changes go [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-minutes.html#action03]

   DanC: 50 minutes into a 90 minute meeting today

   <DanC>
   http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2F
   www.w3.org%2Fhtml%2Fwg%2Fwhowhat.xsl&xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org
   %2F2002%2F09%2Fwbs%2F40318%2Ftasks83%2Fresults&content-type=&submit=
   transform

      http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fhtml%2Fwg%2Fwhowhat.xsl&xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2002%2F09%2Fwbs%2F40318%2Ftasks83%2Fresults&content-type=&submit=transform

   <DanC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/il16

   <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SpecReviews

      http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SpecReviews

   DanC: Spot checking ...
   ... anybody know if Lee has reviewed the Introduction?
   ... looks like Debi Orton has ...
   ... about Document Object Model ...
   ... Peter seems to have reviewed that ...
   ... has Lee reviewed it? ...

   <DanC> Detailed review of Section 1. Introduction. (Thursday, 26
   July)

      http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/1048.html

   DanC: As long as people put "detailed review" (as people seem to
   have done), [it's helpful] ...

   <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html#scope

      http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html#scope

   <DanC> "following items in scope"

   DanC: [discussing <canvas> within scope of charter]

   chaals cites relevant part of charter

   <DanC> "A serialized form of such a language using a defined,
   non-XML syntax compatible with the 'classic HTML' parsers of
   existing Web browsers."

   <DanC> and 3 existing web browsers grok canvas

   <DanC> hmm...

   DanC: Who's signed up to review the canvas spec?
   ... Ben Boyle and Sander ...
   ... doesn't seem that Ben has reviewed it yet (though he has
   reviewed other parts) ...

   <Sander> I'm still working on it, too

   DanC: Chris Wilson says that MS will complete their detailed reviews
   by end of August

   <Dave_Singer> no comments from me on detailed spec. reviews

   <DanC> Gregory: this has been a useful exercise.

   <DanC> Mike: definitely

   Gregory: Detailed review has been one of the most fruitful [uses of
   the list]

   chaals: been trying to do areview of accessibility features

   DanC: speaking of schedule, my goal for first public working draft
   of the HTML5 spec ...
   ... is that each part of the spec be read [carefully] by a member of
   the group ...
   ... [and that we can document that] ...
   ... that we have read, not [necessarily] that we like it ...
   ... first public working draft [FPWD] by September
   ... yeah

   DanC: Summary of CVS commits is a good thing to do.

   <DanC> DanC: I'll try to get regular summaries of spec commits; Mike
   has agreed to do it once

toward release of Design Principles

   <DanC> . ACTION: ChrisW to ping mjs re pending comments on design
   principles

   DanC: I still have not synced up with Maciej, and last telcon, Chris
   said he would take this up

   <DanC> he did make some progress

   <DanC> . ACTION: Gavin_Sharp to review design principles in the next
   two weeks

   DanC: But I have not heard back from Maciej myself
   ... Does anybody know if Gavin has completed that action?

   <chaals> [Yes, issue...]

   Gregory: Surveys get lost in the volume of mail

   DanC: I send little enough mail that I expect everybody to read
   anything I send.

   <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/

      http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/

   wfm

   <Dave_Singer> works for me

   DanC: Does that survey seem like a worthwhile exercise for the
   group?

   <Gregory> even i can get to the survey

   chaals: Yes, but should be clear [that it is to a draft of the
   design principles].

   DanC: Looking at diffs since April 30th

   <Dave_Singer> universalaccess is a conflation of two defined terms:
   accessibility and universality

   DanC: question about design principle related to accessibility

   Dave_Singer: perhaps not a good choice of words for a
   design-principles document

   DanC: I could just issue that survey in its current untidy state.
   ... Question 6 is sort of about the end-game ...
   ... Anne is sufficiently available for my purposes.
   ... but I have been struggling to sync up with Maciej ...

   [discussion about Maciej's availability; appears that Maciej may be
   in a period of time where he's working on other things and may not
   be available much for a while]

   DanC: If we can't do a first working draft of the Design Principles
   doc in August [that is going to be a problem]

   <DanC> ACTION: DanC to take input on the survey
   http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/ for a few days and
   issue it [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-minutes.html#action04]

      http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/

   DanC: I think I can add a survey question: Do you want to play an
   editor role?

Test suite organization

   <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HtmlTestMaterials

      http://esw.w3.org/topic/HtmlTestMaterials

   <DanC>
   http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2F
   www.w3.org%2Fhtml%2Fwg%2Fwhowhat.xsl&xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org
   %2F2002%2F09%2Fwbs%2F40318%2Ftasks83%2Fresults&content-type=&submit=
   transform

      http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fhtml%2Fwg%2Fwhowhat.xsl&xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2002%2F09%2Fwbs%2F40318%2Ftasks83%2Fresults&content-type=&submit=transform

   <Dave_Singer> maciej should be on the call in a few minutes

   DanC: We have dozens of people who have volunteered to help with
   work on test suites

   <Gregory> UAAG Test Suite: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/TS/html401/

      http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/TS/html401/

   Gregory: [mentions user-agent accessibility guidelines]

   <Gregory> UAAG WG: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA

      http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA

   Gregory: I'm an active member of that group

   <Gregory> UAAG 1.0: http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG10

      http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG10

   <chaals> [team contact: Jan Richards (actually works for U of
   Toronto), Chair: Jim Allan]

   <DanC> EARL is cool; see
   http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/test_results

      http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/test_results

   DanC: I think EARL is really cool
   ... we used it in the GRDDL WG ...

definitions, accessibility, etc.

   <Gregory> reference document - accessibility dependencies and
   resources listed on the wiki at:
   http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AccessibilityDependencies

      http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AccessibilityDependencies

   DanC: I will start by talking about a observed pattern I see ...
   ... agreeing on definitions is the whole job ...
   ... of working on standards ...

   <Gregory> common working group vocabulary wiki page:
   http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/CommonVocabularyAndDefinitions

      http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/CommonVocabularyAndDefinitions

   DanC: if anybody thinks, We'll just take a couple of weeks to work
   on agreement about definitions, well [it's not reasonable to expect
   that to get done quickly]

   <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML

      http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML

   Gregory: purpose of that page is to [achieve consensus about terms]

   Gregory: a lot of us talk around each others using the same terms
   [but not using them in the same way]

   DanC: What about actual content?
   ... I think "fallback" is used in the spec some place.
   ... can others help me find that?

   <DanC> "fallback content: content that is to be used when the
   external resource cannot be used (e.g. because it is of an
   unsupported format)." -- http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/

      http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/

   DanC: "fallback content" is bolded in the spec

toward release of Design Principles

   DanC: [talking with Maciej]

   mjs: I've been very busy

   <scribe> ACTION: Maciej to send out wrap-up about design principles
   by Thursday next week. [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-minutes.html#action05]

   <DanC> ADJOURN.

   <DanC> I guess we discussed [agendum 8] a little bit. not much

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: DanC to set up an announcement mailing list, noodling
   with chaals [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]
   [NEW] ACTION: DanC to take input on the survey
   http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/ for a few days and
   issue it [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-minutes.html#action04]
   [NEW] ACTION: Maciej to send out wrap-up about design principles by
   Thursday next week. [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-minutes.html#action05]
   [NEW] ACTION: MikeSmith to write up a summary of changes for last
   [period of time], description of where changes go [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-minutes.html#action03]

      http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/

   [PENDING] ACTION: ChrisW to try to find a Seattle/OZ/Asia time
   [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2007/08/02-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]
   [End of minutes]

-- 
Michael(tm) Smith
http://people.w3.org/mike/
http://sideshowbarker.net/

Received on Thursday, 2 August 2007 18:55:04 GMT

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