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Re: [Bug 10838] New: Make <u> conforming.

From: Zi Bin Cheah <zibin@opera.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 18:31:58 +0200
Cc: Ethan Chen <chief@ethantw.net>, 中文HTML5同樂會ML <public-html-ig-zh@w3.org>, "KangHao Lu (Kenny)" <kennyluck@csail.mit.edu>
Message-Id: <2F4D8A3A-00D4-41C9-A34B-68112E107B29@opera.com>
To: Yuan Chao <yuanchao@gmail.com>

On Sep 30, 2010, at 5:31 PM, Yuan Chao wrote:

> 2010/9/30 Ethan Chen <chief@ethantw.net>
>
> 最後一項是讓相鄰兩專名底下的專名號不相連,這個 
> 作法有點問題,最好的方式如下圖,文字間沒有任何 
> 間隔,底線卻有:
>
> 這張圖是 Yahoo 注音輸入法的標詞功能,方便我們選字 
> 用的。我覺得這應該是瀏覽器實作 underline 的問 
> 題,Yahoo 做得出來瀏覽器也該做得出來。是不是有列 
> 入標準的可能呢?


几种可能性

1。用 <b>
Ethan提到<b>比<mark>更合适,因为mark带有强调作用

2。新标签
大家是否知道日韩那边有没有这样的请求?

更简单的问以下,大家觉得网上使用的可能性会多吗? 
还是书名号使用究竟还是边缘的case?


> 這點很有意義,標專名號的目的,就是要幫助分辨名 
> 詞斷詞的部份。英文的word是靠空白間隔,
> 漢字就得靠「經驗」跟標點符號了。要是拿CSS來做, 
> 可以靠增加字間距的方式?
> 我也覺得還是應該要列入標準當中。
>
> 所以另一個討論串中,拿空白來分隔英文,其實是以 
> 西文的思維來處理?
> (個人也是偏好目前辦公室軟體的做法)
>
>> 同时请教一下,现在标点符号的标准用法是ruby吗?
> 你指的是「文字標註音標」嗎?
> 這是指用ruby畫專名號跟書名號嗎?

只是突然想到ruby负责标符号,那它也能不能标书名 
号?不过又好象没有牵扯到。。。

>
>
>
> 在 Sep 30, 2010 6:26 PM 時, Zi Bin Cheah 寫到:
>
>> 专名号在大马算是没人用,大陆那边应该也少用。可 
>> 能港台教科书有用,电纸书盛行也可能会推动使用 
>> 率。
>>
>> Ian拒绝用<u>语义化来用专名号其实我本人觉得是对 
>> 的。试想想现在大家脑子里一看到<U>就想到underline,  
>> 重新教育有多难,而且大家都会继续滥用。
>>
>> 当然这没有解决专名号的需求。我想到的一个方法是 
>> 用mark然后用CSS去underline它。不晓得这个方法实际 
>> 吗?
>>
>> 同时请教一下,现在标点符号的标准用法是ruby吗?
>>
>> On Sep 30, 2010, at 1:46 AM, KangHao Lu (Kenny) wrote:
>>
>>> 說明一下、、這算是對之前專名號的討論[1]做的回 
>>> 應,總之就是希望HTML5標準書至少不會把<u>放在「不 
>>> 合標準的標籤」[2] 而至少放在「將被拋棄但是合標 
>>> 準」[3]。很抱歉沒先在這個郵件群組得到共識,但 
>>> 是從10/1開始回報標準錯誤的過程會進入下一個階段 
>>> 所以我至少希望這個議題在這個時候被拿出來討論 
>>> 一下。我目前的看法是
>>>
>>> - 加一個新標籤(像是<pn>之類的)真的很不可能
>>> - 用<a>或<a href>(屬性沒值)是一種濫用
>>> - <span class="pn"> 還是有點太長了
>>> - Mike跟我講說<i>留下來的很大原因是因為西方會用 
>>> 斜體標船名,總不能發明一個<ship>吧。所以<u>是比 
>>> 較實在的,而且也不少人支持把<u>拿回來。
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 總之這個議題處理的狀況都會CC到這個列表啦,如果 
>>> 這個提案被回絕了大家也多多瞭解這個HTML5編輯Ian  
>>> Hickson是怎麼做事的吧。議題回報裡我也提到了之前 
>>> 的討論(三年前了、、),有些為什麼<u>不見了但 
>>> 是<b><i>回來了的原因(主要就是<u>跟超連結的混亂 
>>> 問題)。不過那時候都沒什麼人提到專名號所以這 
>>> 次就順便提了一提啦!
>>>
>>> 歡迎大家用HTML5 Bug Tracker的時候CC到這邊來。
>>>
>>> 有空再多介紹一些HTML5的名人吧(像是Bug裡提到的 
>>> Apple的Maciej[5])
>>>
>>> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-ig-zh/2010Aug/threadl#msg184
>>> [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#non-conforming-features
>>> [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#obsolete-but-conforming-features
>>> [4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/thread#msg268
>>> [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maciej_Stachowiak
>>>
>>> 此致
>>>
>>> Kenny
>>>
>>> On 2010/09/30, at 8:06, bugzilla@jessica.w3.org wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10838
>>>>
>>>>         Summary: Make <u> conforming.
>>>>         Product: HTML WG
>>>>         Version: unspecified
>>>>        Platform: PC
>>>>             URL: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#obsolete-but-
>>>>                  conforming-features
>>>>      OS/Version: All
>>>>          Status: NEW
>>>>        Severity: major
>>>>        Priority: P3
>>>>       Component: HTML5 spec (editor: Ian Hickson)
>>>>      AssignedTo: ian@hixie.ch
>>>>      ReportedBy: kennyluck@w3.org
>>>>       QAContact: public-html-bugzilla@w3.org
>>>>              CC: mike@w3.org, public-html-wg-issue-tracking@w3.org,
>>>>                  public-html@w3.org, public-i18n-cjk@w3.org,
>>>>                  public-html-ig-zh@w3.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This was discussed in a long thread[1] three years ago. There was  
>>>> no consensus
>>>> and no response from the editor, but since some people like  
>>>> Maciej think we can
>>>> make <u> at least conforming[2], I would like to raise this bug  
>>>> to catch the
>>>> editor's attention.
>>>>
>>>> Proper name mark, in Chinese [3] is a use case that was slightly  
>>>> mentioned in
>>>> the thread (see also an example picture[4]). The purpose of this  
>>>> mark is to
>>>> highlight *every* proper noun in some text to help the reader  
>>>> break words,
>>>> cause Chinese people don't use spaces for word breaking. Although  
>>>> it is no
>>>> longer popular recently, proper name mark is still used in some  
>>>> textbooks in
>>>> Taiwan (esp. children's Chinese textbook) and Hong Kong. Because  
>>>> the purpose
>>>> and frequency of using "proper name mark" in a piece of text is  
>>>> similar to code
>>>> highlighting, I personally don't think it's appropriate to use  
>>>> <mark> for this
>>>> purpose since the spec says "This (<mark>) is separate from syntax
>>>> highlighting, for which span is more appropriate." But then <span  
>>>> class="pn">
>>>> is probably too long. This is not yet a very prevalent use case  
>>>> because proper
>>>> name marks are often used in combination with vertical text and  
>>>> vertical text
>>>> is not yet popular on the Web.
>>>>
>>>> While I do strongly agree that an underlined text which is not a  
>>>> hyperlink
>>>> confuses the user in his/her browsing experience, there are HTML  
>>>> user agents
>>>> for which browsing the Web isn't the main purpose and hence the  
>>>> user might not
>>>> get confused. e-book readers are such examles.
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/thread#msg268
>>>> [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/0307
>>>> [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_name_mark
>>>> [4] http://www.go8.com.tw/files/4168%200004.jpg
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Configure bugmail: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
>>>> ------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
>>>> You are on the CC list for the bug.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Zi Bin Cheah / 谢子斌
>>
>> Web Evangelist
>> / Developer Relations / Site Compatibility / Products Group /
>>
>> Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway
>> + 47 23 69 25 81 / twitter: zibin
>>
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> -- 
> Best regards,
> Yuan Chao

Regards,

Zi Bin Cheah / 谢子斌

Web Evangelist
/ Developer Relations / Site Compatibility / Products Group /

Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway
+ 47 23 69 25 81 / twitter: zibin
Received on Thursday, 30 September 2010 16:33:01 GMT

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