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Re: [Bug 10838] New: Make <u> conforming.

From: John Hax <johnhax@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 03:00:28 +0800
Message-ID: <AANLkTina9KZ+hF-Vjc6d4F+hNzuVf0JZ-acharK-4dre@mail.gmail.com>
To: Zi Bin Cheah <zibin@opera.com>
Cc: (wrong string) 妯傛渻ML <public-html-ig-zh@w3.org>, "KangHao Lu (Kenny)" <kennyluck@csail.mit.edu>
我也赞同,u的问题太多,还是b比较靠谱。
当然HTML标签的名字其实都含有西方习惯(如b源自bold,而中文专名号和bold没啥关系,又如hr的原意是水平分割,可是对于竖排文本当然应该是垂直分割),这事儿也是没办法的。

2010/10/1 Zi Bin Cheah <zibin@opera.com>

>
> On Sep 30, 2010, at 5:31 PM, Yuan Chao wrote:
>
>  2010/9/30 Ethan Chen <chief@ethantw.net>
>>
>> 最後一項是讓相鄰兩專名底下的專名號不相連,@個作法有點問題,最好的方式如下圖,文字間沒有任何間隔,底線卻有:
>>
>> @張圖是 Yahoo 注音輸入法的標詞功能,方便我們選字用的。我覺得@應該是瀏覽器實作 underline 的問題,Yahoo
>> 做得出來瀏覽器也該做得出來。是不是有列入標準的可能呢?
>>
>
>
> 几种可能性
>
> 1。用 <b>
> Ethan提到<b>比<mark>更合适,因为mark带有强调作用
>
> 2。新标签
> 大家是否知道日韩那边有没有这样的请求?
>
> 更简单的问以下,大家觉得网上使用的可能性会多吗?还是书名号使用究竟还是边缘的case?
>
>
>
>  @點很有意義,標專名號的目的,就是要幫助分辨名詞斷詞的部份。英文的word是靠空白間隔,
>> 漢字就得靠「經驗」跟標點符號了。要是拿CSS來做,可以靠增加字間距的方式?
>> 我也覺得還是應該要列入標準當中。
>>
>> 所以另一個討論串中,拿空白來分隔英文,其實是以西文的思維來處理?
>> (個人也是偏好目前辦公室軟體的做法)
>>
>>  同时请教一下,现在标点符号的标准用法是ruby吗?
>>>
>> 你指的是「文字標註音標」嗎?
>> @是指用ruby畫專名號跟書名號嗎?
>>
>
> 只是突然想到ruby负责标符号,那它也能不能标书名号?不过又好象没有牵扯到。。。
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> 在 Sep 30, 2010 6:26 PM 時, Zi Bin Cheah 寫到:
>>
>>  专名号在大马算是没人用,大陆那边应该也少用。可能港台教科书有用,电纸书盛行也可能会推动使用率。
>>>
>>> Ian拒绝用<u>语义化来用专名号其实我本人觉得是对的。试想想现在大家脑子里一看到<U>就想到underline,
>>> 重新教育有多难,而且大家都会继续滥用。
>>>
>>> 当然这没有解决专名号的需求。我想到的一个方法是用mark然后用CSS去underline它。不晓得这个方法实际吗?
>>>
>>> 同时请教一下,现在标点符号的标准用法是ruby吗?
>>>
>>> On Sep 30, 2010, at 1:46 AM, KangHao Lu (Kenny) wrote:
>>>
>>>  說明一下、、@算是對之前專名號的討論[1]做的回應,總之就是希望HTML5標準書至少不會把<u>放在「不合標準的標籤」[2]
>>>> 而至少放在「將被拋棄但是合標準」[3]。很抱歉沒先在@個郵件群組得到共識,但是從10/1開始回報標準錯誤的過程會進入下一個階段所以我至少希望@個議題在@個時候被拿出來討論一下。我目前的看法是
>>>>
>>>> - 加一個新標籤(像是<pn>之類的)真的很不可能
>>>> - 用<a>或<a href>(屬性沒值)是一種濫用
>>>> - <span class="pn"> 還是有點太長了
>>>> -
>>>> Mike跟我講說<i>留下來的很大原因是因為西方會用斜體標船名,總不能發明一個<ship>吧。所以<u>是比較實在的,而且也不少人支持把<u>拿回來。
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 總之@個議題處理的狀況都會CC到@個列表啦,如果@個提案被回絕了大家也多多瞭解@個HTML5編輯Ian
>>>> Hickson是怎麼做事的吧。議題回報裡我也提到了之前的討論(三年前了、、),有些為什麼<u>不見了但是<b><i>回來了的原因(主要就是<u>跟超連結的混亂問題)。不過那時候都沒什麼人提到專名號所以@次就順便提了一提啦!
>>>>
>>>> 歡迎大家用HTML5 Bug Tracker的時候CC到@邊來。
>>>>
>>>> 有空再多介紹一些HTML5的名人吧(像是Bug裡提到的Apple的Maciej[5])
>>>>
>>>> [1]
>>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-ig-zh/2010Aug/threadl#msg184
>>>> [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#non-conforming-features
>>>> [3]
>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#obsolete-but-conforming-features
>>>> [4]
>>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/thread#msg268
>>>> [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maciej_Stachowiak
>>>>
>>>> 此致
>>>>
>>>> Kenny
>>>>
>>>> On 2010/09/30, at 8:06, bugzilla@jessica.w3.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10838
>>>>>
>>>>>        Summary: Make <u> conforming.
>>>>>        Product: HTML WG
>>>>>        Version: unspecified
>>>>>       Platform: PC
>>>>>            URL: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#obsolete-but-
>>>>>                 conforming-features
>>>>>     OS/Version: All
>>>>>         Status: NEW
>>>>>       Severity: major
>>>>>       Priority: P3
>>>>>      Component: HTML5 spec (editor: Ian Hickson)
>>>>>     AssignedTo: ian@hixie.ch
>>>>>     ReportedBy: kennyluck@w3.org
>>>>>      QAContact: public-html-bugzilla@w3.org
>>>>>             CC: mike@w3.org, public-html-wg-issue-tracking@w3.org,
>>>>>                 public-html@w3.org, public-i18n-cjk@w3.org,
>>>>>                 public-html-ig-zh@w3.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This was discussed in a long thread[1] three years ago. There was no
>>>>> consensus
>>>>> and no response from the editor, but since some people like Maciej
>>>>> think we can
>>>>> make <u> at least conforming[2], I would like to raise this bug to
>>>>> catch the
>>>>> editor's attention.
>>>>>
>>>>> Proper name mark, in Chinese [3] is a use case that was slightly
>>>>> mentioned in
>>>>> the thread (see also an example picture[4]). The purpose of this mark
>>>>> is to
>>>>> highlight *every* proper noun in some text to help the reader break
>>>>> words,
>>>>> cause Chinese people don't use spaces for word breaking. Although it is
>>>>> no
>>>>> longer popular recently, proper name mark is still used in some
>>>>> textbooks in
>>>>> Taiwan (esp. children's Chinese textbook) and Hong Kong. Because the
>>>>> purpose
>>>>> and frequency of using "proper name mark" in a piece of text is similar
>>>>> to code
>>>>> highlighting, I personally don't think it's appropriate to use <mark>
>>>>> for this
>>>>> purpose since the spec says "This (<mark>) is separate from syntax
>>>>> highlighting, for which span is more appropriate." But then <span
>>>>> class="pn">
>>>>> is probably too long. This is not yet a very prevalent use case because
>>>>> proper
>>>>> name marks are often used in combination with vertical text and
>>>>> vertical text
>>>>> is not yet popular on the Web.
>>>>>
>>>>> While I do strongly agree that an underlined text which is not a
>>>>> hyperlink
>>>>> confuses the user in his/her browsing experience, there are HTML user
>>>>> agents
>>>>> for which browsing the Web isn't the main purpose and hence the user
>>>>> might not
>>>>> get confused. e-book readers are such examles.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1]
>>>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/thread#msg268
>>>>> [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/0307
>>>>> [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_name_mark
>>>>> [4] http://www.go8.com.tw/files/4168%200004.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Configure bugmail:
>>>>> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
>>>>> ------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
>>>>> You are on the CC list for the bug.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Zi Bin Cheah / 谢子斌
>>>
>>> Web Evangelist
>>> / Developer Relations / Site Compatibility / Products Group /
>>>
>>> Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway
>>> + 47 23 69 25 81 / twitter: zibin
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Yuan Chao
>>
>
> Regards,
>
> Zi Bin Cheah / 谢子斌
>
> Web Evangelist
> / Developer Relations / Site Compatibility / Products Group /
>
> Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway
> + 47 23 69 25 81 / twitter: zibin
>
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Received on Thursday, 30 September 2010 19:06:50 UTC

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