W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html-ig-zh@w3.org > September 2010

Re: [Bug 10838] New: Make <u> conforming.

From: Yuan Chao <yuanchao@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 17:31:04 +0200
Message-ID: <AANLkTinM9VURWcp8w1V09q5cgXpx+TTgKWw-O-abZcGd@mail.gmail.com>
To: Ethan Chen <chief@ethantw.net>
Cc: Zi Bin Cheah <zibin@opera.com>, 中文HTML5同樂會ML <public-html-ig-zh@w3.org>, "KangHao Lu (Kenny)" <kennyluck@csail.mit.edu>
2010/9/30 Ethan Chen <chief@ethantw.net>

最後一項是讓相鄰兩專名底下的專名號不相連,這個作法有點問題,最好的方式如下圖,文字間沒有任何間隔,底線卻有:
> [image: Content]
> 這張圖是 Yahoo 注音輸入法的標詞功能,方便我們選字用的。我覺得這應該是瀏覽器實作 underline 的問題,Yahoo
> 做得出來瀏覽器也該做得出來。是不是有列入標準的可能呢?
>
這點很有意義,標專名號的目的,就是要幫助分辨名詞斷詞的部份。英文的word是靠空白間隔,
漢字就得靠「經驗」跟標點符號了。要是拿CSS來做,可以靠增加字間距的方式?
我也覺得還是應該要列入標準當中。

所以另一個討論串中,拿空白來分隔英文,其實是以西文的思維來處理?
(個人也是偏好目前辦公室軟體的做法)

同时请教一下,现在标点符号的标准用法是ruby吗?
>
> 你指的是「文字標註音標」嗎?
>
這是指用ruby畫專名號跟書名號嗎?



在 Sep 30, 2010 6:26 PM 時, Zi Bin Cheah 寫到:

专名号在大马算是没人用,大陆那边应该也少用。可能港台教科书有用,电纸书盛行也可能会推动使用率。

Ian拒绝用<u>语义化来用专名号其实我本人觉得是对的。试想想现在大家脑子里一看到<U>就想到underline,
重新教育有多难,而且大家都会继续滥用。

当然这没有解决专名号的需求。我想到的一个方法是用mark然后用CSS去underline它。不晓得这个方法实际吗?

同时请教一下,现在标点符号的标准用法是ruby吗?

On Sep 30, 2010, at 1:46 AM, KangHao Lu (Kenny) wrote:

說明一下、、這算是對之前專名號的討論[1]做的回應,總之就是希望HTML5標準書至少不會把<u>放在「不合標準的標籤」[2]
而至少放在「將被拋棄但是合標準」[3]。很抱歉沒先在這個郵件群組得到共識,但是從10/1開始回報標準錯誤的過程會進入下一個階段所以我至少希望這個議題在這個時候被拿出來討論一下。我目前的看法是


- 加一個新標籤(像是<pn>之類的)真的很不可能

- 用<a>或<a href>(屬性沒值)是一種濫用

- <span class="pn"> 還是有點太長了

-
Mike跟我講說<i>留下來的很大原因是因為西方會用斜體標船名,總不能發明一個<ship>吧。所以<u>是比較實在的,而且也不少人支持把<u>拿回來。




總之這個議題處理的狀況都會CC到這個列表啦,如果這個提案被回絕了大家也多多瞭解這個HTML5編輯Ian
Hickson是怎麼做事的吧。議題回報裡我也提到了之前的討論(三年前了、、),有些為什麼<u>不見了但是<b><i>回來了的原因(主要就是<u>跟超連結的混亂問題)。不過那時候都沒什麼人提到專名號所以這次就順便提了一提啦!


歡迎大家用HTML5 Bug Tracker的時候CC到這邊來。


有空再多介紹一些HTML5的名人吧(像是Bug裡提到的Apple的Maciej[5])


[1]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-ig-zh/2010Aug/threadl#msg184

[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#non-conforming-features

[3]
http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#obsolete-but-conforming-features

[4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/thread#msg268

[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maciej_Stachowiak


此致


Kenny


On 2010/09/30, at 8:06, bugzilla@jessica.w3.org wrote:


http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10838


        Summary: Make <u> conforming.

        Product: HTML WG

        Version: unspecified

       Platform: PC

             URL: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#obsolete-but-

                  conforming-features

     OS/Version: All

          Status: NEW

       Severity: major

        Priority: P3

      Component: HTML5 spec (editor: Ian Hickson)

      AssignedTo: ian@hixie.ch

     ReportedBy: kennyluck@w3.org

      QAContact: public-html-bugzilla@w3.org

              CC: mike@w3.org, public-html-wg-issue-tracking@w3.org,

                  public-html@w3.org, public-i18n-cjk@w3.org,

                 public-html-ig-zh@w3.org



This was discussed in a long thread[1] three years ago. There was no
consensus

and no response from the editor, but since some people like Maciej think we
can

make <u> at least conforming[2], I would like to raise this bug to catch the

editor's attention.


Proper name mark, in Chinese [3] is a use case that was slightly mentioned
in

the thread (see also an example picture[4]). The purpose of this mark is to

highlight *every* proper noun in some text to help the reader break words,

cause Chinese people don't use spaces for word breaking. Although it is no

longer popular recently, proper name mark is still used in some textbooks in

Taiwan (esp. children's Chinese textbook) and Hong Kong. Because the purpose

and frequency of using "proper name mark" in a piece of text is similar to
code

highlighting, I personally don't think it's appropriate to use <mark> for
this

purpose since the spec says "This (<mark>) is separate from syntax

highlighting, for which span is more appropriate." But then <span
class="pn">

is probably too long. This is not yet a very prevalent use case because
proper

name marks are often used in combination with vertical text and vertical
text

is not yet popular on the Web.


While I do strongly agree that an underlined text which is not a hyperlink

confuses the user in his/her browsing experience, there are HTML user agents

for which browsing the Web isn't the main purpose and hence the user might
not

get confused. e-book readers are such examles.


[1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/thread#msg268

[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/0307

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_name_mark

[4] http://www.go8.com.tw/files/4168%200004.jpg


-- 

Configure bugmail: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/userprefs.cgi?tab=email

------- You are receiving this mail because: -------

You are on the CC list for the bug.




Regards,

Zi Bin Cheah / 谢子斌

Web Evangelist
/ Developer Relations / Site Compatibility / Products Group /

Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway
+ 47 23 69 25 81 / twitter: zibin
















-- 
Best regards,
Yuan Chao
Received on Thursday, 30 September 2010 15:32:24 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Tuesday, 6 January 2015 20:43:45 UTC