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Re: [Bug 10838] New: Make <u> conforming.

From: Ethan Chen <chief@ethantw.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 01:13:47 +0800
Cc: Yuan Chao <yuanchao@gmail.com>, 中文HTML5同樂會ML <public-html-ig-zh@w3.org>, "KangHao Lu (Kenny)" <kennyluck@csail.mit.edu>
Message-Id: <856347C9-0FD1-4BE8-B08F-41BC06F56C8E@ethantw.net>
To: Zi Bin Cheah <zibin@opera.com>
>>> 同时请教一下,现在标点符号的标准用法是ruby吗?
>> 你指的是「文字標註音標」嗎?
>> 這是指用ruby畫專名號跟書名號嗎?
> 
> 只是突然想到ruby负责标符号,那它也能不能标书名号?不过又好象没有牵扯到。。。
這個方法還真的蠻有意思的,只是不知道符不符合 ruby 的用法。提到這個,我之前想過,搞不好 CSS 能有個新的屬性「asian-text-decorative-punctuation」之類的,值則是類似 content 填入任何「字元符號」。如下:

b.pn:lang(zh),
pn:lang(zh) {
	asian-text-decorative-punctuation: "_" bottom;
	/* 專名號 */
}


em:lang(zh) {
	asian-text-decorative-punctuation: "•" bottom;
	/* 或是日文的「、」,表示「著重號」  */
}


cite:lang(zh-tw) {
	asian-text-decorative-punctuation: "﹏" bottom;
	/* 台灣的書名號甲式  */
}

decorative punctuation 是「裝飾(文字)的標點」,代表是與文字融合在一起、而非自己獨立成一字元的標點。

前些日子看到學校張貼公告,裡面大量用到「著重號」。台灣教育部是沒有提到這個符號,但可以在一些小說中見到。據維基百科的說法 [1],大陸跟香港在學校教學中還是會教授著重號的用法,不曉得各位對實際的情況有何了解?畢竟西文的「斜體」在傳統中文裡幾乎不曾見到,也沒看過哪家中文字體公司有設計「斜體」,大都是瀏覽器偽裝的「偽斜體」,不實用之外,也有美觀的問題。<em> 的中文預設樣式我覺得也很需要討論,不是直接照著西文走。


> 更简单的问以下,大家觉得网上使用的可能性会多吗?还是书名号使用究竟还是边缘的case?

因為嫌麻煩,用是當然少了。但教科書上是這樣編寫,許多正式文書也會用到。網頁除了一般瀏覽外,也有很大的機會變成「教材、教科書」或是正式文案。我們討論的目的不就是要減少這類差距嗎?:-P

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/著重號




在 Oct 1, 2010 12:31 AM 時, Zi Bin Cheah 寫到:

> 
> On Sep 30, 2010, at 5:31 PM, Yuan Chao wrote:
> 
>> 2010/9/30 Ethan Chen <chief@ethantw.net>
>> 
>> 最後一項是讓相鄰兩專名底下的專名號不相連,這個作法有點問題,最好的方式如下圖,文字間沒有任何間隔,底線卻有:
>> 
>> 這張圖是 Yahoo 注音輸入法的標詞功能,方便我們選字用的。我覺得這應該是瀏覽器實作 underline 的問題,Yahoo 做得出來瀏覽器也該做得出來。是不是有列入標準的可能呢?
> 
> 
> 几种可能性
> 
> 1。用 <b>
> Ethan提到<b>比<mark>更合适,因为mark带有强调作用
> 
> 2。新标签
> 大家是否知道日韩那边有没有这样的请求?
> 
> 更简单的问以下,大家觉得网上使用的可能性会多吗?还是书名号使用究竟还是边缘的case?
> 
> 
>> 這點很有意義,標專名號的目的,就是要幫助分辨名詞斷詞的部份。英文的word是靠空白間隔,
>> 漢字就得靠「經驗」跟標點符號了。要是拿CSS來做,可以靠增加字間距的方式?
>> 我也覺得還是應該要列入標準當中。
>> 
>> 所以另一個討論串中,拿空白來分隔英文,其實是以西文的思維來處理?
>> (個人也是偏好目前辦公室軟體的做法)
>> 
>>> 同时请教一下,现在标点符号的标准用法是ruby吗?
>> 你指的是「文字標註音標」嗎?
>> 這是指用ruby畫專名號跟書名號嗎?
> 
> 只是突然想到ruby负责标符号,那它也能不能标书名号?不过又好象没有牵扯到。。。
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 在 Sep 30, 2010 6:26 PM 時, Zi Bin Cheah 寫到:
>> 
>>> 专名号在大马算是没人用,大陆那边应该也少用。可能港台教科书有用,电纸书盛行也可能会推动使用率。
>>> 
>>> Ian拒绝用<u>语义化来用专名号其实我本人觉得是对的。试想想现在大家脑子里一看到<U>就想到underline, 重新教育有多难,而且大家都会继续滥用。
>>> 
>>> 当然这没有解决专名号的需求。我想到的一个方法是用mark然后用CSS去underline它。不晓得这个方法实际吗?
>>> 
>>> 同时请教一下,现在标点符号的标准用法是ruby吗?
>>> 
>>> On Sep 30, 2010, at 1:46 AM, KangHao Lu (Kenny) wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 說明一下、、這算是對之前專名號的討論[1]做的回應,總之就是希望HTML5標準書至少不會把<u>放在「不合標準的標籤」[2] 而至少放在「將被拋棄但是合標準」[3]。很抱歉沒先在這個郵件群組得到共識,但是從10/1開始回報標準錯誤的過程會進入下一個階段所以我至少希望這個議題在這個時候被拿出來討論一下。我目前的看法是
>>>> 
>>>> - 加一個新標籤(像是<pn>之類的)真的很不可能
>>>> - 用<a>或<a href>(屬性沒值)是一種濫用
>>>> - <span class="pn"> 還是有點太長了
>>>> - Mike跟我講說<i>留下來的很大原因是因為西方會用斜體標船名,總不能發明一個<ship>吧。所以<u>是比較實在的,而且也不少人支持把<u>拿回來。
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 總之這個議題處理的狀況都會CC到這個列表啦,如果這個提案被回絕了大家也多多瞭解這個HTML5編輯Ian Hickson是怎麼做事的吧。議題回報裡我也提到了之前的討論(三年前了、、),有些為什麼<u>不見了但是<b><i>回來了的原因(主要就是<u>跟超連結的混亂問題)。不過那時候都沒什麼人提到專名號所以這次就順便提了一提啦!
>>>> 
>>>> 歡迎大家用HTML5 Bug Tracker的時候CC到這邊來。
>>>> 
>>>> 有空再多介紹一些HTML5的名人吧(像是Bug裡提到的Apple的Maciej[5])
>>>> 
>>>> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-ig-zh/2010Aug/threadl#msg184
>>>> [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#non-conforming-features
>>>> [3] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#obsolete-but-conforming-features
>>>> [4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/thread#msg268
>>>> [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maciej_Stachowiak
>>>> 
>>>> 此致
>>>> 
>>>> Kenny
>>>> 
>>>> On 2010/09/30, at 8:06, bugzilla@jessica.w3.org wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10838
>>>>> 
>>>>>        Summary: Make <u> conforming.
>>>>>        Product: HTML WG
>>>>>        Version: unspecified
>>>>>       Platform: PC
>>>>>            URL: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#obsolete-but-
>>>>>                 conforming-features
>>>>>     OS/Version: All
>>>>>         Status: NEW
>>>>>       Severity: major
>>>>>       Priority: P3
>>>>>      Component: HTML5 spec (editor: Ian Hickson)
>>>>>     AssignedTo: ian@hixie.ch
>>>>>     ReportedBy: kennyluck@w3.org
>>>>>      QAContact: public-html-bugzilla@w3.org
>>>>>             CC: mike@w3.org, public-html-wg-issue-tracking@w3.org,
>>>>>                 public-html@w3.org, public-i18n-cjk@w3.org,
>>>>>                 public-html-ig-zh@w3.org
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> This was discussed in a long thread[1] three years ago. There was no consensus
>>>>> and no response from the editor, but since some people like Maciej think we can
>>>>> make <u> at least conforming[2], I would like to raise this bug to catch the
>>>>> editor's attention.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Proper name mark, in Chinese [3] is a use case that was slightly mentioned in
>>>>> the thread (see also an example picture[4]). The purpose of this mark is to
>>>>> highlight *every* proper noun in some text to help the reader break words,
>>>>> cause Chinese people don't use spaces for word breaking. Although it is no
>>>>> longer popular recently, proper name mark is still used in some textbooks in
>>>>> Taiwan (esp. children's Chinese textbook) and Hong Kong. Because the purpose
>>>>> and frequency of using "proper name mark" in a piece of text is similar to code
>>>>> highlighting, I personally don't think it's appropriate to use <mark> for this
>>>>> purpose since the spec says "This (<mark>) is separate from syntax
>>>>> highlighting, for which span is more appropriate." But then <span class="pn">
>>>>> is probably too long. This is not yet a very prevalent use case because proper
>>>>> name marks are often used in combination with vertical text and vertical text
>>>>> is not yet popular on the Web.
>>>>> 
>>>>> While I do strongly agree that an underlined text which is not a hyperlink
>>>>> confuses the user in his/her browsing experience, there are HTML user agents
>>>>> for which browsing the Web isn't the main purpose and hence the user might not
>>>>> get confused. e-book readers are such examles.
>>>>> 
>>>>> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/thread#msg268
>>>>> [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/0307
>>>>> [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_name_mark
>>>>> [4] http://www.go8.com.tw/files/4168%200004.jpg
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Configure bugmail: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
>>>>> ------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
>>>>> You are on the CC list for the bug.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> Zi Bin Cheah / 谢子斌
>>> 
>>> Web Evangelist
>>> / Developer Relations / Site Compatibility / Products Group /
>>> 
>>> Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway
>>> + 47 23 69 25 81 / twitter: zibin
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Best regards,
>> Yuan Chao
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Zi Bin Cheah / 谢子斌
> 
> Web Evangelist
> / Developer Relations / Site Compatibility / Products Group /
> 
> Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway
> + 47 23 69 25 81 / twitter: zibin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
Received on Thursday, 30 September 2010 17:14:28 UTC

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