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Re: Updated ISSUE-206 CP

From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 09:30:14 +0100
Message-ID: <CA+ri+Vmn73tiukL3zZQs8Ft1mU0Yq=ERZKn9Jatgn=DvPwA+zw@mail.gmail.com>
To: John Foliot <john@foliot.ca>
Cc: Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis <bhawkeslewis@googlemail.com>, "Edward O'Connor" <eoconnor@apple.com>, public-html@w3.org, HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>
Hi John,

I discussed with ben on another thread whether adding a default string
to the acc name was useful, I came to the conclusion that it was
better not to add a default string, but to indicate the presence of
the generator attribute via a property.

For example in IAccessible2 as an object attribute property, I have
not looked into how it could be conveyed in other API's yet.

using a property is preferable as it provides a clear indication to
the AT, and allows the AT to process at sees fit. Adding a default
string to the acc name does not.

Regards
Steve

On 22 August 2012 03:33, John Foliot <john@foliot.ca> wrote:
> Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, fine, but 
>>
>> The proposed attribute would be a fairly weak signal of the importance
>> or non-importance of the image.
>
> How so? It would signal that there is an image that may or may not be important, but that the system does not know.
>
>> Its presence means little. If a
>> publisher republishes syndicated content, their automated systems are
>> unable to distinguish photos added to articles for illustration rather
>> than for more fluffy reasons, e.g. a random photo of a celebrity added
>> to an article about that celebrity that has nothing to do with the
>> photo, just for the sake of having a photo.
>
> Ergo, there is an image here that is probably not strictly decorative: it may or may not be important, but the system does not know. Full stop.
>
>
>> Conversely, its absence
>> means little: the web corpus will continue to overflow with critically
>> important images without @alt or this new attribute.
>
> I'm not looking to solve all problems overnight, and this is certainly one of those types of problems. Developing a solution that has incremental benefit is of equal value to me over seeking the Holy Grail of alt text. We currently lack *any* mechanism that accurately conveys to the non-sighted user that there is an image on the page that most likely should have, but does not have, some alt text. The overwhelming feedback I got was that non-sighted users want to know *that* fact.
>
>
>>
>> We should be practical and concentrate on improving the accessibility
>> mappings to support more effective heuristics, such as intrinsic
>> dimensions, color variation, filename, and repeated use, that would
>> apply to images with or without this attribute.
>
> Sorry Ben, but heuristics is just a fancy way of saying guessing, and I for one am adamant that guessing is a horrible way of moving forward.
>
> While I did not ask the dozen or so daily users I spoke with earlier this month, I feel fairly confident that they would all concur that taking a stab-in-the-dark guess at an alternative text can be even more useless than being told that here's an image with no other details - at least in the second case they have an accurate and honest response from the system, and the end user can ask for sighted assistance if they so desire.
>
> Finally, at this time I believe that this Working Group has already spoken on heuristic alt text:
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0001.html
>
>
>> Arguing about,
>> speccing, implementing, and testing AAPI for this attribute but not
>> those more effective signals is a misdirection of effort.
>
> In your opinion.
>
> If you believe you have a specific solution that could be included in HTML5, please do bring it forward; however until such time as such a solution exists, I myself will continue to seek a usable solution that solves user-problems now.
>
> JF
>
>
>



-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG

www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
Received on Wednesday, 22 August 2012 08:31:33 GMT

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