W3C Forms teleconference October 26, 2011

* Present

Nick van den Bleeken, Inventive Designers
Philip Fennell, MarkLogic
Alain Couthures, AgenceXML
Steven Pemberton, CWI (chair)
Leigh Klotz, Xerox (minutes)
Uli Lissé, DreamLabs
Kurt Cagle, XML Today

* Agenda


* Time Change Next week for Europe

Steven Pemberton: Next week call is one hour earlier for Europe, then back to regular time the next week.

* XML Prague F2F?


Steven Pemberton: I think it's quite a good idea.
Nick van: I will be there two days early and stay after.
Steven Pemberton: We have to find money for a room.
Nick van: There is space available for one day at XML Prague.
Steven Pemberton: That sounds nice.
Uli Lissé: I think I would go.
Steven Pemberton: Anyone from the US?
Leigh Klotz: I doubt I will be able to go.
Steven Pemberton: It might been an informal thing then.
Uli Lissé: An editing session.
Steven Pemberton: Philip, are you planning to go to XML Prague?
Philip Fennell: I'd like to go and will update in due course.
Alain Couthures: I would come too. I am preparing some papers.
Steven Pemberton: Let's pencil it in. Nick, can you contact for the rooms?
Nick van: I know there are meetings, XSLT, XQuery, XSLFO. I don't know anybody to contact.
Alain Couthures: I can check.

ACTION-1837 Research rooms at XML Prague.

Steven Pemberton: Kurt, are you planning to go to XML Prague.
Kurt Cagle: I doubt I will be able to.

Steven Pemberton: Nick, will you have time for an editorial meeting in November?
Nick van: November is quite full for me. December is probably full for you.
Steven Pemberton: Possibly the very first two days.

* Seneca Implementation Report

Steven Pemberton: A Dutch vendor has asked us where to put implementation reports.
Nick van: We have them in CVS. We have a stylesheet do the display.
Steven Pemberton: We should put those somewhere visible.

* XForms Test Suite 1.1 - Test case 2.4.a


Steven Pemberton: This questions is from Seneca.
Leigh Klotz: The issue is about the schema. We left off elementFormDefault="qualified".
Steven Pemberton: Is that right?
Leigh Klotz: I suspect we need to reproduce his results.
Steven Pemberton: Do we say this is an error and add the correction?
Leigh Klotz: I think this doesn't affect XForms conformance as this purely an XML Schema issue and we don't say anything special about namespaces. So pull out the instance and schema and run it outside. And then test to see fixing it breaks any XForms processor, which would mean there is an unwritten assumption about how inline schemas are different with regard to namespaces.
Nick van: Chiba, Firefox and EMC are passing this test.
Alain Couthures: XSLTForms passes it but it doesn't support the elementFormDefault attribute. However, I have read that elementFormDefault is required to support namespaces.
Leigh Klotz: Alain, why do you think XSLTForms passes it?
Alain Couthures: It has its own validator, right or wrong.
Leigh Klotz: Do you implement elementFormDefault?
Alain Couthures: Not yet. I would like to know what server-side engines do.
Steven Pemberton: Anyone else?
Leigh Klotz: We should ask John next week.

* XForms 1.1 xforms-select event


Steven Pemberton: "Should xforms-select be sent during initialization."
Nick van: We discussed improving UI events.
Steven Pemberton: Do we send xforms-readonly?
Nick van: None of the events are sent during initialiation, only during state change.
Alain Couthures: It's already implemented in XSLTForms.
Kurt Cagle: It sounds like an event sent by the user on xforms-ready.
Steven Pemberton: Alain, you do this?
Alain Couthures: Events are dispatched at xforms-read for this problem.
Steven Pemberton: And xforms-readonly?
Alain Couthures: I don't think so.
Steven Pemberton: If we're going to do it you would want to be consistent.
Nick van: We had two F2F discussions on this and were almost there but not everybody was convinced and we stopped talking about it. It's not clear now if the events are for the XForms engine or the author. If it's for the author you want to be informed.
Steven Pemberton: So that means that we could answer that it's not required but you can do it.
Nick van: I think John would argue that you can't do it because the spec doesn't say it.
Steven Pemberton: It's not the case that implementations do that now.
Nick van: I believe Orbeon is also sending the events on startup.
Steven Pemberton: "If this event is not fired during initial rendering, I need to add redundant (and error-prone) state information to set its initial value."
Nick van: Yes.
Steven Pemberton: What do other people do?
Nick van: John's implementation does not. Chiba doesn't, but I'm not sure. I think Orbeon does.

ACTION-1838 Steven Pemberton to reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2011Oct/0001.html to say that the events are not required, but there are impls that send them

Nick van: how orbeon treats the events: http://wiki.orbeon.com/forms/doc/developer-guide/xforms-refresh-events

* A processing-instruction to activate XForms


Steven Pemberton: We almost had a spec for this very long ago. It came from Mikko Honkala who was doing the X-Smiles implementation.

ACTION-1839 Steven Pemberton to locate Mikko Honkala's PI proposal

Alain Couthures: It points at the instance.
Steven Pemberton: Why is it /instance/?
Alain Couthures: It is supposed to be bold; it is just an ID.
Steven Pemberton: This looks similar to Mikko's proposal. Clearly there is a need.

* Move selected items from one select drop down to another one

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2011Aug/0001.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2011Aug/0001.html

Leigh Klotz: Is this done? Erik Bruchez responded that Orbeon had an extension that did this directly: http://wiki.orbeon.com/forms/doc/developer-guide/xbl-components/dialog-select
Steven Pemberton: So we need Erik.
Leigh Klotz: Here is John's article: https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/mydeveloperworks/blogs/JohnBoyer/entry/moving_choices_from_one_list_to_another_in_xforms34?lang=en

* Schematron validation (via transform)

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2011May/0001.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2011May/0002.html

Philip Fennell: I know Alain has been doing work with XSLTForms and transform(). I'd like to redo my work on that once those changes are available.
Alain Couthures: It's about transform with parse vs document. I can already load a form within a form to modify and launch it as a subform. Then we could use it to do schema validation.
Steven Pemberton: Is there more to discuss? Do we have a position? Is there something we need to make official?
Philip Fennell: I chose it as a use case for the transform() function. In doing so that showed up implementation issues. I can't carry on any further until we have a transform() within an instance and have the result as an XML document.
Leigh Klotz: I believe the issue for prototyping in XSLTForms is that XSLTForms currently returns a string.
Alain Couthures: Right
Philip Fennell: Getting the report is one thing. Getting the schema compiled into XForms and applied as a transform is a second.

* XHTML + XForms

Leigh Klotz: Should we try to get this done with XHTML Modularization or just as an organic document?
Steven Pemberton: Prose?
Leigh Klotz: Prose, schemas, description of CSS clsses.
Steven Pemberton: Is this a rec-track document or a note?
Leigh Klotz: I can't remember what the charter says.
Steven Pemberton: It calls it a note.
Leigh Klotz: So perhaps I should just start something in the wiki.
Steven Pemberton: So agreed. Start with existing document?
Leigh Klotz: I'd start with a blank document with the schema and the Venice list of CSS classes.
Steven Pemberton: Sounds good.

* Next week an hour earlier in Europe

* IRC Minutes


* Meeting Ends