- From: Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>
- Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 07:13:35 +0100
- To: xmlschema-dev@w3.org
Hello schema devs.
Can a XSD-based processor validate that a XHTML5 document contains the
HTML5 DOCTYPE type declaration? And can it do so without resorting
hacks? Can it be expressed in the XSD-language itself, or must the
processor performa an initial 'DTD-mode' check?
Note: The HTML5 DOCTYPE *declaration* doesn't reference a DOCTYPE
*definition*, so I do not ask if XSD can validate the 'ExternalID' or
'intSubset' part of the DOCTYEP declaration. I only wonder if XSD
allows checking that the 'name' part of the DOCTYPE matches the 'root
element type'. Since it is well-formed to include DOCTYPE declaration
without a DTD, and since XSD moves the validation from DTD to, well
XSD, it ought, it seems, be possible to use XSD to verify that the
DOCTYPE declaration contains the name of the root element (the same way
that XSD allows checking many things that, per XML 1.0, does not fall
under XML 1.0’s validity concept).
Background for my question is that XML editors/processors nowadays tend
to be schema based, even when a DTD is references. And hence, if XSD
doesn’t validate the DOCTYPE *declaration*, XSD could in fact label
constructs like this as 'validating':
<!DOCTYPE NotTheHtmlRootElement>
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head><title></title>
</head><body><p/></body></html>
And in fact, it seems most XSD processor do say that the above is
validating. For example Libxml2 in XSD mode does. Just ask xmllint to
apply the XHTML 1.1 XSD[1] to a XHTML 1.1 doc with '<DOCTYPE HTML'
instead of '<DOCTYPE html'[2]:
xmllint --schema http://tinyurl.com/a9lrvfq http://tinyurl.com/bkhk86p
Even the well known Oxygen editor, which (by default) uses Xerces, does
in the abvoe case behave like Libxml2.
Now, if we move focus to processors that only consider DTD-validity,
then both the rxp processor and Libxml2 in DTD mode reports, for the
above document, that validation could not be performed due to lack of
DTD:
rxp -V http://tinyurl.com/bkhk86p
xmllint --valid http://tinyurl.com/bkhk86p
However, in the presence of a (supported) SYSTEM ID/URI, the some
processor are triggered into DTD-validation mode even if the ID/URI
leads nowhere, meaning that they check that the root element matches
root name in the document type declaration. Libxml2 (xmllint) does in
fact behave that way (even if it also, in that case, reports that the
root elements hasn’t been delcared.)
By the way: If we remove the XSD specific attributes from the markup of
the above test document, then Oxygen (Xerces) does in fact complain
that the root element doesn't match the document type declaration. And
it does so *without* complaining that the rest of the markup is
invalid. Is this because oXygen uses a XSD schema that includes DOCTYPE
validation? Or is it because it uses "DTD mode" for the DOCTYPE, and
then XSD mode for the rest of the document?
SOME "PHILOSOPHIC" QUESTIONS: According to XML 1.0, "validity
constraints" apply to all valid documents. Does XML by this mean "all
DTD-valid documents", noly? This is relevant since XML says that it is
a validity constraint that the DOCTYPE declaration matches the root.
Thus, it seems to me that if this validity constrain does *not* apply
to XSD, then XSD processor are, in fact, not validating processors.
(I.e. "validating processor" per XML 1.0, then means "DTD-validating
processor".) If so, then in one way, it is unlucky that 'validity' is
used by anything other than DTD-validity.
RELATED COMMENTS:
1) On one side, There seems to be confusion within the XML community
about the HTML5 doctype declaration. For example the XMLmind xml editor
developers (which has developed as XSD for XHTML5) had let themselves
convince that the HTML5 doctype was not well-formed - only when I made
them aware of Polyglot Markup, did they realize that it was well-formed
to include the HTML5 DOCTYPE.[3]
2) And on the other - but related(sic!) - side, we have the fact that
HTML5 doesn’t declare any "official" XHTML5 doctype declaration, which
is a reflection of the general, sceptic attitude in the XML community
these days, towards document type declarations and document type
definitions. Which more specifically is related to a focus on
well-formed as "good enough" (not to say "difficult enough") on one
side, as well as a focus on "better" methods for validations - namely
XML schemas.
3) But perhaps HTML5 goes a little bit too far, right now: Surely HTML5
could at least say that, if a DOCTYPE declaration is used, then the
'name' part of the 'doctypedecl' should match the root element of the
docuement?!?
FINALLY: My focus with this letter, is XML processor’s ability to
validate/create XHTML5 document that, as far as the *DOCTYPE
declaration* is concerned, are polyglot.
PS: I note with interest that the XSD schema files for the XSD language
itself, themselves (some of them) include document type declarations.
And so I wonder: What would happen if one altered the root names
declared by the document type declaration in those XSD documents? Would
XSD-based processor stop working … ?
[1] http://tinyurl.com/as3k455
[2] http://tinyurl.com/a9lrvfq
[3]
http://www.xmlmind.com/pipermail/xmleditor-support/2013-January/010268.html
--
leif halvard silli
Received on Thursday, 14 February 2013 06:14:09 UTC