Re: issue: remove solicit-response and output-only operations?

This goes to prove that there is confusion around this. This is totally
different from subscribing messages/reponses/events that a server sends. What is
perhaps missing is how do we capture the specification that "I initiate and send
you this request and I expect you to send me this response message" as opposed
to "If you send me this request you will get this response" as captured by the
request/response type

Regards, Prasad.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: issue: remove solicit-response and output-only operations?
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:32:37 -0700
From: "Sandeep Kumar" <sandkuma@cisco.com>
To: "Prasad Yendluri" <pyendluri@webMethods.com>,"Roberto Chinnici"
<roberto.chinnici@sun.com>
CC: <www-ws-desc@w3c.org>

Hi,

Solicit-Response is nothing but a degenerate case of per message/request
subscription.
So if you have first-class subscription support, solicit-response is easy to
support.
Am I missing something?
Sandeep

-----Original Message-----
From: www-ws-desc-request@w3.org [mailto:www-ws-desc-request@w3.org]On
Behalf Of Prasad Yendluri
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 2:29 PM
To: Roberto Chinnici
Cc: www-ws-desc@w3c.org
Subject: Re: issue: remove solicit-response and output-only operations?


Hi Roberto,

Roberto Chinnici wrote:

> It seems to me that if we remove solicit-response and notification
operations
> from interfaces (portTypes), we'll remove a major source of confusion in
WSDL.
>
> Both mechanisms described in Prasad's email can be recovered by putting
what
> used to be solicit-response and notification operations in their own port
type
> and reversing them, making them request-response and one-way operations.

<PY>
I am not sure if I understand what is being proposed above. How would this
portType
be different from a request-response/oneway port type?

What I am looking for is exactly what Pallavi is looking for also. That is,
how do we
capture outbound requests (from the request initiator perspective) in
addition to the
current service provider (request-receiver / responder) perspective, so that
we can
capture both client and server views of the exchanges (as in a business
process).

</PY>

> A future event-notification description language or an upper-layer
business
> process language could then use this new port type for its own purposes.

> If we need to capture the fact that a WSDL 1.next service defines some
> outbound operations, which I'm guessing is what Pallavi is hinting at in
> her message, we can allow adding "outbound ports" to a service (and
> later to a service type). It could be as simple as adding a new attribute
> direction="inbound|outbound" (with inbound as default value) to <port/>.
> The full specification of an event/callback registration mechanism can
> then be done later. Notice also that it's much easier for a tool to match
> up a client and a server if they both declare ports of the same type
> but with opposite directions, as opposed to identifying conjugate
> operations in different portTypes.

<PY> This I think would  be an alternate way of capturing what we are
looking for.
So, we will have two ports with the same (type and) binding but, for the
port
representing request-initiating (client) end-point have the direction
attribute set
to "outbound" (and "inbound" for the server side). Seems reasonable to me.
However I
see some difficulty in representing an exchange that goes back and forth
where the
client and server switch roles back and forth in realizing a business
process. That
is one side is sometimes a client to the other and vice-versa.

</PY>

Regards, Prasad

> Roberto
>
> --
> Roberto Chinnici
> Java and XML Software
> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>
> Prasad Yendluri wrote:
>
> > We discussed this briefly during F2F last week also but to expand a
little more
> > on this, I see a need for both types of mechanisms. That is,
> >
> > 1) A solid event-notification mechanism (that is service initiated) that
> > Sanjiva proposes as the replacement. This would however call for the
> > specification of the complete details including the event subscription
> > mechanism etc. as we had discussed in the f2f. This is to facilitate a
server
> > to generate events (subsequent to a request).
> >
> > 2) A way to describe things from a request initiator perspective.
Revised and
> > completed versions of Solict-Response and Notification that "fix" the
abstract
> > definitions and provide full details of the concrete definitions.
> >
> > I personally would be willing to go with the removal of these patterns
if there
> > is a clear way to capture both sides of an exchange (e.g. in a business
> > process) say by an upper layer mechanism (analogous to WSFL or XLANG).
However
> > both seem to (XLANG I know for sure) rely on Solicit-Response /
Notification
> > type patterns to accomplish this. It is not clear to me how else this
could be
> > accomplished...
> >
> > Regards, Prasad
> >
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: RE: issue: remove solicit-response and output-only operations?
> > Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 20:19:41 -0400 (EDT)
> > Resent-From: www-ws-desc@w3.org
> > Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 17:18:28 -0700
> > From: "Malu, Pallavi G" <pallavi.g.malu@intel.com>
> > To: "'Sanjiva Weerawarana'" <sanjiva@watson.ibm.com>,
www-ws-desc@w3c.org
> > CC: "'pyendluri@webmethods.com'" <pyendluri@webMethods.com>
> >
> > Sanjiva,
> >
> > For representing Rosettanet PIPs we need solicit-response operations.
> > e.g. PIP3A4 - is a PurchaseOrderRequest ans PurchaseOrderConfirmation
> > scenario between the buyer and the seller.
> >
> > buyer:
> >    <operation name="submitPO">
> >      <output message="PORequest"/>
> >      <input message="POResponse"/>
> >   </operation>
> >
> > and corresponding seller:
> >   <operation name="processPO">
> >      <input message="PORequest"/>
> >      <output message="POResponse"/>
> >   </operation>
> >
> > So unless we have some first-class description of an event mechanism in
> > place, I suggest we leave the "solicit-response" and "output-only" as is
in
> > WSDL1.2.
> >
> > -Pallavi
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Sanjiva Weerawarana [mailto:sanjiva@watson.ibm.com]
> > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 9:14 PM
> > To: www-ws-desc@w3c.org
> > Subject: issue: remove solicit-response and output-only operations?
> >
> > The WG would like to solicit your comments on whether we should
> > eliminate WSDL 1.1's "solicit-response" and "output-only"
> > operations as we produce WSDL 1.2.
> >
> > Here are the two issues from the latest part1 document. Note that
> > I have posted these together as the decisions obviously need to
> > be coupled.
> >
> >   <issue id="issue-remove-solicit-response-operations" status="open">
> >     <head>Should we remove solicit-response operations?</head>
> >     Solicit-response operations are not fully defined in WSDL
> >     1.1. There are multiple interpretations of these in the community:
> >     event, callback etc.. Also, there is little evidence that anyone
> >     is actually using them.  We could consider replacing this with
> >     a first-class description of an event mechanism.
> >     <source>Sanjiva Weerawarana</source>
> >   </issue>
> >
> >   <issue id="issue-remove-notification-operations" status="open">
> >     <head>Should we remove notification operations?</head>
> >     Notification operations are also not fully defined in WSDL
> >     1.1. There are multiple interpretations of these in the community:
> >     event, callback etc.. Also, there is little evidence that anyone
> >     is actually using them. We could consider replacing this with
> >     a first-class description of an event mechanism.
> >     <source>Sanjiva Weerawarana</source>
> >   </issue>
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Sanjiva.

Received on Tuesday, 16 April 2002 17:42:56 UTC