- From: CIP 90 <srbosque@faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
- Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 16:41:10 +0100
- To: itake@euetit.upc.es (Salvador Mercader), mg@id.dtu.dk (Marc Gonzalez), dulz@informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Dr. Winfried Dulz), acxpt@eupbl.upc.es (Xavier Perramon Tornil), cnhuebne@faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Christian Huebner), rrstudt@faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de, wdstenze@faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de, arost@faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de, Marcus Meissner <msmeissn@faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>, jngottsc@faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Johann Gottschall), alu035@eupbl.upc.es (Ruben Ramos Nogueira), Ismael <mpg95003@babia.dit.upm.es>, a930205@zipi.fi.upm.es (Tania), jnkaiser@faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Jochen Kaiser), msfriedl@faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de, mlbickel@faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de, 100276.2341@compuserve.com (Franz-Xaver Puy Michl - Private account), 100563.2245@compuserve.com (Franz-Xaver Puy Michl - Office account), gsec@sirius.ac.upc.es (Oscar Ciurana), cewagner@faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Constanze), Victor.Valdivia@stud.uni-erlangen.de (Victor Valdivia), Ralf Boehringer <R.Boehringer@cranfield.ac.uk>, lsijvb@eupbl.upc.es (Jordi Valls Badia), albert@nlwl01.nlwl.uni-jena.de (Albert Gonzalez), plg@cnve.rz.uni-jena.de, alu108@eupbl.upc.es (Pep Bosque i Puy), matjss@mat.upc.es (Jaume Sanz Subirana), vstarke@seda.sowi.uni-bamberg.de (Valentin Starke), bharting@seda.sowi.uni-bamberg.de (Bernd 'Trane' Hartings), bettina@cs.ucsb.edu (Bettina), Mine Metin <memetin@faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>, jsanz@cip.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de (Julian Sanz Hernansanz), a.molina@ieee.org (Angel Molina), "Javi 'Bolitxe' Urrutia Garcia" <fogarcia@faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>, torvalds@kruuna.helsinki.fi (Linus B.Torvalds), kobras@csaserv.erlh.siemens.de (Bernhard Kobras), mslechne@faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Matthias Lechner), stock@obelix.cica.es (Martin 'er Seviyano' Stock), dkbartz@immd9.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Dirk Bartz), fsi@faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Fachschaft Informatik Erlangen), telams@maite.mat.upc.es (Angela Miro), hackers@plearn.edu.pl (Hackers discusion list), jvendrell@servicom.es (Jordi Vendrell), Stefan Mueller <smueller@nt.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de>, Stefan Bieschewski <snbiesch@faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>, jgleisen@immd9.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Joerg Leisenberg), Jens.Eschenbacher@stud.uni-erlangen.de (Jens Eschenbacher), jsneeb@faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Jens Neeb), Elke Wigger <eewigger@faui01.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hi to all of you, All the of the people included in the To: header of this mail are Internet users -aka NetIzens- like me <Salva.Bosque@stud.uni-erlangen.de>, and with most of you we have already meet and know each other for a while in this kind of thing called "real life". So this is *not* a spamming, just wait and read a little bit more before you press the (D)elete key. [and oh yeah, this message is being posted at the same time in misc.news.internet.discuss and the www-talk mailing list. Because I'm looking hungry for feedback, not only coming from the NetIzens I've meet in "real life" but from any other people out there willing for expressing his opinion about the Net nowadays] In short, I'm looking for your opinions, for your points of view about the influence of Internet on our society. I'm a catalan guy trying to finish before the end of this century ;-) his Diplom Thesis here at Erlangen, Germany. The subject of my Thesis is: Study on the performance of the HTTP protocol, and their efficient realization among others with Formal Description Techniques such as SDL/MSC. After more than a year engaged with this project, I've realized at last that an study on HTTP and the Internet in general needs, in my humble opinion, not only a technical point of view but also at least a little bit of attention about the influence of our lovely Arpanet'95 on our society and our lives. That's why I will try in my paper to, apart from studying the inefficiencies of the HTTP protocol and proposing some technical alternatives to improve it, give my *personal* point of view about the "state of the art" of Arpanet'95. This will include, among others, the following topics: - The possibility for the first time in history to create Virtual Communities, groups of people that share just an opinion, an idea or a taste and come from different countries, cultures, religions and/or social layers. - The possibility of what I call "distributed thinking" and "distributed programming", too. I think you will agree with me, that without Internet we wouldn't have available by now so huge, complex and powerful programming efforts such as Lin*x, Emacs, WINE, Hurd and many others... I heard somewhere that somebody compared once the Emacs project with the landing of man on moon (in greath and complexity terms): no company by itself (no IBM, no DEC, no Sun, no Cray Corp.) could have *ever* managed to elaborate such a complex programming project like the (gnu|x}emacs we can enjoy nowadays. (yeah, I said *enjoy*, you vi-freaks out there ;-) - [here your ideas and feelings about what the Internet has brought to your lifes] ...but unfortunately not *everything* on the Net is so fine and beatific. I can see among others the following dangers on our lovely Arpanet95: - Ok, on the Net you can find *everything*. But are we the humans ready to assimilate accordingly all this huge amount of information that changes at a ultra-fast pace?? I mean, a paper-book has not yet hyper-links, and that's why I manage to finish most of them and at least try to *assimilate* them. I mean *assimilate*, not just store them on my hard disk for a later occasion...that's what I do with most of the postscript files and www pages I "surf" from time to time. I mean, is it meaningful?? - A really frightening addiction/dependence danger: how many people out there on the Net have disconnected already from "real life" and are by now immersed in their own, self-created Internet-world?? How risky, how easy is to become a Internet-junkie?? Are there available medical/psychological studies on the influence on the Internet on our ways of behaving??...oh well, I happen to know a couple of guys or, uh sorry, NetIzens that literally don't speak with anybody, just with his IRC channel. Is this what we wanted??? - Security holes: with the new Java object oriented language, *cool* applets can be written for your www-browser to display an animation or play some game. But, how *secure* is Java? Or, more specifically, how secure is the implementation of Java on the Not-Escape!2.0 web-Navigator, a product that crashes more or less 50% of the applets, a product which "100% secure" RSA public key cryptosystem was cracked recently by two students??? Can we really trust Not-Escape? yeah, I know, it's cool & fast...well, anyway, it is not faster than Arena <http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/Arena/0.96> - By the way, NotEscape tries to impose *his* NHTML (netscape-html or no-html, as you like, but it is *not* *clean* html3.0 anyway!!) "forced de facto" standard. I ran a test just a while ago and some of this *cool*, full of background gifs and client-side maps netscape-enhanced-pages are *not* viewable *at all* by any of the following browsers: Mosaic, Arena, tkWWW, EmacsW3, lynx...(See <http://www7.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/~srbosque/all.www.clients.screen-shots.zip>) I mean, is this the Open Systems Architecture I heard sometime about?? Is this the Net we want?? Of course there were many more other topics I would like to discuss, but these are just enough by now and for me. In my paper I don't want to make a scientifical, serious study of the sociological influence of the Internet. All these topics will be covered in just a sometimes serious, sometimes humorous Appendix that I would like to call "Internet or the Art of Zen" (no, no "Zen or the Art of the Internet", and no, no "Zen or the Art of the Archery") And for this Appendix I need your help, you guys, you friends of mine, you NetIzens. I need your opinions on these topics, and if you have other ideas to add, just make them notice to me. Just a reply to this mail (much better a reposed, long awaited reply than a fast one) would be sufficient for me. And then I would be *really* thankful with all of you. At the end of this message I attached some excerpts from some mail exchange I had lately with the author of a "soft-spamming" I got last week. I think they're kind of a good illustration of the topics I would like to write about in the "not so scientific" appendix of my Thesis. So just take your time, think a little bit about what is Internet for you nowadays, what *should* it be from your point of view and send your thoughts and feedback please to me <Salva.Bosque@stud.uni-erlangen.de> [Sorry but I will only read the email specifically addressed to me. I don't have the time to read Usenet news or subscribe to a mailing list by now] I'm willing for your feedback, your opinions about Arpanet95. Thanks a lot (for your patience) Salva - - - -- Salvador Bosque i Puy <Salva.Bosque@rzmail.uni-erlangen.de> URL: http://www7.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/~srbosque PGP public key: finger -l srbosque@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de | pgp -f Key fingerprint: 3E E6 3A 0D 20 D3 29 CC 42 C9 AD F2 6C EE F4 CE - - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> On Fri, 1 Dec 1995 04:30:58 -0500 (EST), >>>>> Steve R Peterson >>>>> who can be reached at: srp@gedisa.com >>>>> (whose comments are cited below with " Steve> "), >>>>> had this to say in article <199512010930.EAA24185@clark.net> >>>>> concerning the subject of Re: Editorial Gedisa Steve> Salva I am the person that e-mailed you from Editorial Gedisa. I Steve> designed and maintain thier page as well as do some Internet Steve> surfing for them, basically looking for potencial clients. That's Steve> how I ended up at your page, which I linked from the "Païsanos Steve> Catalanos" page. And, yes, we do use a form letter (saves time) to Steve> mail to people that we think would be interested in what the Steve> company has to offer, but we only send one at a time - so it's not Steve> a bulk "target" mailing. You're a lucky person and Gedisa is a lucky company...I must confess that my first impulse when I received your mail was to fill your mailbox@gedisa for at least the next 200 years. (Yeah, I *could* do that, but don't be afraid, I *won't*. 8-X...I'm too naive and a nice and friendly guy to do that. But maybe other hackers on the net could do it, so be warned) I don't know what you or Gedisa think about or if you have ever heard about commercial spams and hosts and powerful sites closed by hacker-attacks (just people angry because somebody tried to use his lovely internet to make some business) I hope you really *know* what you're doing sending mail in this way. So good luck, really. You will need it. [...] Steve> Also, I'm not sure how you feel about taking advantage of Netscape Steve> extensions, but by using the simple <body bgcolor= "#RRGGBB hex Steve> value"> would give a nice attractive color background. Well actually I use the bgcolor NHTML (some people read it as Netscape-HTML, the people that have an idea about what is *or should* be our lovely internet read it as no-html ;-> on <http://wwwcip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/user/srbosque/my_photo.html> and uh well, I'm not really happy with this decission: Yeah, it looks *cool*, really. But surprisingly I could see this page quite well with Netscape 1.2 until Not Escape! 2.0J was released: with this kind of browser, on my grayscale monitor here at my cute SunSPARC 20 box I can only appreciate a dark background, and I'm not able to read now anything. What an upgrade. Yeah, that's what it's called 80%-netscape-compatibility, may I presume? ;-> Steve> You can contol the color of your text and links too this way. This Steve> is a touchy subject with some people but with 80% (and growing) of Steve> the people on the net using Netscape, I feel it makes sense to take Steve> advantage of (even though they may not be "techinically" Steve> recognized) these powerful extensions, Well, not *only* I personally think that you and 80% of NetIzens are wrong, the World Wide Web Consortium <http://www.w3.org> and the Internet Engineering Task Force< <http://www.ietf.cnri.reston.va.us/> agree with me: In short, the main objective of our internet back in the 70's (aka Arpanet'95) was to create an Open Systems Architecture. This means that an heterogeneous bunch of computers (unixes, vax-vms, dos, windoze, mac, cray) could share data and network resources thanks to something called *standard* Protocols (have you ever heard about the International Standards Organitation--Open Systems Interconnections (ISO-OSI) reference model??. Well, do you have an idea how hard is to make that Sun Microsystems, DEC, IBM and lots of manufacturers agree with a proposed standard?? Anyway, at last they managed to agree. And now on 1995 there's a company author of a cool but dirty -technically speaking netscape is bullshit, may I say- www browser and pretends to *impose* *his* standard. Well anyway, maybe there's a lot of people out there using NotScripe, but an Open Systems Architecture means that your page at <http://www.clark.net/pub/srp/home.html> should be readable on all kind of platforms (not only Win95) but among others including Unixes (running VT-100 or X Window System), VAX-VMS, MS-DOS, Mac's, Crays...). And oh well, your page is cool, really. But in fact *I cannot read a word* of your page here at my greyscale monitor of my Sun SPARC box, because your background appears at my screen as black. Black, dark black. Well anyway, here I happen to have a Silicon Graphics IRIS Indigo and your page appears really cool, may I say. Are you really suggesting that all 40e6 people on the net should buy an Silicon Indy??? Or should I downgrade to Win95??? Steve> ESPECIALLY if your using the new Netscape 2.0 browser. As I said, you're a lucky person if your hard disk hasn't been erased in the last few clicks at your Not Escape 2.0J(ava). Have you ever heard about security holes?? Have you ever hard about the SSL-bug?? Netscape allways said that his encryption algorithm was 100% secure to send private and confidential information until two bored students at Berkeley cracked his (deficient) implementation of the algorithm. Oh really, Java is still in beta phase and Not Escape 2.0J makes a Java-complient browser that crashes 50% of the applets!!! Should I now trust that no architecture-independent-viruses, no finger-attacks, no intruder-trojan-horses may attack my system with just a click on Not Escape 2.0J????? Oh really, as I said, netscape it's cool, really cool. But dirty, really dirty too. And *really* dangerous. Netscape could kill the internet, some people out there are now suggesting. So go right ahead with your bgcolor until some Java trojan horse makes the following on *your* system: $ rm -rf / Well I don't know if you're fond on Unix, the last 9-character command erases without confirmation in 2 seconds all the system files, user zones and absolutely *everything* on a Un*x box. And Java is architecture-independent, so be warned. Steve> You asked about the accents. Your first letter came through showing Steve> the tilde over the "n" (ñ) just fine, but you second note looked a Steve> bit funny. For example it put and "s" for ó (o with an accent) Steve> some "a" did not have accents ( in the word "más" for example) and Steve> some times there was accents all by themselves. This is strange Steve> because I use the MIME complient EUDORA vs. 1.52 and usually I get Steve> all the accents and stuff. If I get something from a non MIME Steve> complient mailer I get the ASCII code (ex: &3G) instead of the Steve> accent. Your 2nd message was the first one I've seen like this. Steve> BTW - I run Windows 95 mmhh, well, may I suggest that's the reason??? Windoze95 = Mac84 !!! Anyway, what follows is a friendly, not ironical and real proposal of this student trying to finish his Master Thesis here at Erlangen: Could you please help me on my Thesis? I need the opinions of somebody like you fond on surfin' the net and on sending commercial spams^H^H^H^H^H^H messages on the Net. Just a reply to this mail, with your opinion on my opinions would be sufficient for me. Would you do that for me? Oh thanks!! Can your address appear in the acknowledgements part of my thesis?? Oh thanks!!! [That was a *true, sincerely* offer to help me in my project just with your opinion on the topics of this mail] Steve> PS Have you checked out Editorial Gedisa's or my page yet? Let me Steve> know what YOU think! See my comments on the bgcolor nhtml tag. ;-) Well have a really nice day fightin' against those hacker' attacks that probably will your site become in the next few days. [ehem, maybe your company needs a network security advisor? May I suggest an unemployed catalan guy here at Erlangen? ;-)] - - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue Dec 5 16:32:05 1995 Hi Steve, I'm really pleased and thankful with your answer. It sure will be included partially with my self, personal view and other contributions from other sources at the appendix of my paper where I will try to explain, in a sometimes humorous, sometimes serious point of view, what is the state of the art of our lovely Internet by now: Arpanet'95. >>>>> "Steve" == Steve R Peterson <srp@gedisa.com> writes: Salva> I don't know what you or Gedisa think about or if you have ever Salva> heard about commercial spams and hosts and powerful sites closed by Salva> hacker-attacks (just people angry because somebody tried to use his Salva> lovely internet to >make some business) Steve> Your right - in a way it is spamming. But you must understand [...] mmh, yeah, that's what I supposed and that's why you didn't received an attack yet from mephisto.informatik.uni-erlangen.de ;-). You sure won't become it as far I am concerned. By the way, have you received any attack/complain from anybody out there about your "softspamming"?? Steve> Where there is money to be made, there will be people ready to take Steve> advantage of this, for better or worse. Take Netscape for Steve> example. Your right - it is dirty and is not sticking with the Steve> proposed standards and protocols but with the demand from Steve> businesses for slick in-line images, plug-ins , and colorful pages, Steve> of course, Netscape is going to develop thier own extensions to Steve> handle this. Do you blame them? Steve> Who wants to see a plain dull grey background and black text when Steve> you can use colors (and gifs,jpegs) for your background and Steve> text. Why not use frames and Client-side image maps? Let face it - Steve> Netscape is moving ahead and pushing the limits of what one can do Steve> with a home page. Why don't take then *real* html3.0 or the Arena browser from W3O <http://www.w3.org/hypertext/WWW/Arena/0.96>??. It's a cool, multiple asynchrone multithreaded connections, real html3.0 browser too, and it's clean, well behaved and following the standards!. Steve> And why? Because there is money to be made. oh, I see. Still, why don't arena, for instance?? [unfortunately Arena is more of a experiment and test field for the html3.0 spec and the WWW-Library of Common Code, but still, it's a good browser!] Steve> As a business (or basically your average net-surfer) you probably Steve> don't care if your following "set" protocols (your average user Steve> probably doesn't even know what they are) you going to want a cool Steve> page full of graphics, frames ect....Apparently it's working - like Steve> a I said before 80% of the browsers on the net are Basically, Steve> Netscape is giving people what they want, oh well...it's the eternal question: does the marketing follow the tastes of the market or viceversa??? Steve> Salva, I think the days of the Internet as we know it today are Steve> numbered........ yeah, I agree with you. But it's up to all of us here on the net to decide which way to follow, isn't it?? Salva> Well anyway, maybe there's a lot of people out there using Salva> NotScripe, but an Open Systems Architecture means that your page at Salva> <http://www.clark.net/pub/srp/home.html Salva> should be readable Salva> on all kind of platforms (not only Win95) but among others Salva> including Unixes (running VT-100 or X Window System), VAX-VMS, Salva> MS-DOS, Mac's, Crays...). Steve> Like I mentioned above....if 80% of the people on the net are using Steve> Netscape why bother trying to design something that will please Steve> everyone, or rather, people using LYNX, Mosaic, ect... My page is Steve> designed for the browser Netscape and anyone using this browser can Steve> see it Well not really. I have for instance problems reading your page with both netscape 1.12 and netscape 2.0 on my greyscale monitor, as you can see in the gif screenshots available at <http://www7.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/~srbosque/all.www.clients.screenshots.zip> I hope you can decode this zip file, please make me notice if you have a problem or whatever) Steve> To be perfectly frank and honest with you Salva, if someone is Steve> still surfing the net using LYNX or some other text-only browser, Steve> they're probably so far behind the times in everything that I Steve> really don't care if they can see my page or not - missing out one Steve> or two people no and then is not going to break my heart. Well, as you can see from the screenshots, I think you're going *too far* with your netscape tags. Not only lynx, but Mosaic, Arena, tkWWW *can't* read *a word* of your page. Is this what you wanted?? Do you get money from Netscape to make of your page only-netscape-viewable?? I mean, what do you take in profit with this decission? I mean, it's not *so* difficult to please not only 98% but 100% of the people out there...;-) Steve> Something interesting - I run a backend CGI program that Steve> e-mails me everytime someone comes to my page, For example, Steve> this was you: Steve> " From: NET@listserv.clark.net Steve> Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 04:57:08 -0500 Steve> To: srp@clark.net Steve> Content-Length: 80 Steve> faui70f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de in Germany was the 620th to Steve> visit this page" Steve> The "NET" tells me that you were using Netscape 2.0b Steve> (hmmmmm..interesting). oh well, I use among others netscape2.0J, netscape1.12, Mosaic, arena, lynx, tkWWW and my self-written-still-not-perfect wwwbrowser...I'm writing a paper on www clients, as you sure remember... Steve> Your right. Java is still in the BETA phase. Even though I use Steve> Netscape 2.0, I don't mess with Java Aplets. Not safe enough. But Steve> give it time..... Good, you're a responsible and informed computer user. But what about trillions of people out there seduced with the *cool* applets that soon or later will erase their hard disks??? Is it not *too* dangerous??? Do you have an idea what an architecture-independent-trojan-horse is capable of? Aren't we risking *too* much for just a couple of *cool* java-animations??? Steve> I assume that your not fond of the Windows operating system. I'm Steve> not even going to touch this one - Windows vs. Mac oh well, I'm not a mac-guy (although I would choose mac vs windoze if I were forced to) but more of a linux-un*x-guy. Yeah, linux has the best qualitity/price ratio in the market: 1/0 = infinity, isn't it?? Steve> You probably are right with a lot of your points. You are the computer Steve> expert, not me. oh please, I'm only a humble student here. Steve> But would will be interesting to talk again in a year or so. If the Steve> WWW changes at the same pace as it did in the past year.....well, Steve> let's just say that you and I probably both will be have proven Steve> right (and wrong) on some of our views. As I said, the www doesn't evolve on its own. It's up to the users, up to you and me, which way to follow. Steve> I hope that this letter helps you with your paper. You probably Steve> don't agree with me on some of my views but that's OK - everyone is Steve> entitled to his or her opinion, correct or not - right? Oh really my most sincere thanks. And you're right, everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. And that's precisely the beauty and greath of our lovely and sometimes misused Internet, in my humble opinion. And that's why I'm so engaged with my paper nowadays and asked for your help. Of course I'm willing for your feedback again [but please take your time, don't forget your duties at Gedisa. For me it's much better and precious a reposed, long awaited mail than a short and fast reply]. Ask your colleagues/friend at Gedisa/whereever too. All kind of point of views are welcomed here. Steve> BTW- I got your mime-attached gifs. Nice touch! I hope you get the *huge* zip file with the gif screenshots too. See ya, moltíssimes gràcies de veritat, Salva - -- Salvador Bosque i Puy <Salva.Bosque@stud.uni-erlangen.de> URL: http://www7.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/~srbosque PGP public key: finger -l srbosque@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de | pgp -f Key fingerprint: 3E E6 3A 0D 20 D3 29 CC 42 C9 AD F2 6C EE F4 CE -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2i Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.2, an Emacs/PGP interface iQCVAwUBMMhcBrBt4q/iJcI5AQHNBgP9FFqSSRxVmijuBwfXmOPoGILJl4KIgHoo V7NryGNHKkwZcBm+HKUMo92sOoci+8n392ND5/mlTBPWjf3fp2n50MvhO8srl21m YELLO252mV8K4hVDsHUMLQY7mtYw/+6dJcCR/Tbh/8t61LLI3X9DeP/UbDZg9QHk jrG53LGkjs0= =1knW -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Received on Friday, 8 December 1995 10:43:10 UTC