- From: Yves Lafon <ylafon@w3.org>
- Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 10:06:07 -0500 (EST)
- To: www-tag@w3.org
Available at:
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/12/20-minutes
and below in text format:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
Technical Architecture Group Teleconference
20 Dec 2012
[2]Agenda
[2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/12/20-agenda
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2012/12/20-tagmem-irc
Attendees
Present
Masinter, plinss, Thomas, Ashok_Malhotra,
Noah_Mendelsohn, noah, Rigo, Wendy, Yves, TimBL
Regrets
Chair
Noah
Scribe
Yves
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Minutes of previous teleconference
2. [6]Publishing and linking on the Web
3. [7]actions
* [8]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<scribe> scribe: Yves
<trackbot> Date: 20 December 2012
Minutes of previous teleconference
RESOLUTION: minutes approved
<noah> [9]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/12/13-minutes are
approved
[9] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/12/13-minutes
Publishing and linking on the Web
<noah>
[10]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/PublishingAndLinkingOnTheWeb
-20121015.html
[10]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/PublishingAndLinkingOnTheWeb-20121015.html
Ashok: I wanted to thank Rigo, Thomas for their comments, I'm
quite open to comments; if it means that we need to rescind the
document, so be it.
tlr: as I wrote, the document tries to do lots of things for
lots of different people, there is value in exploring the
topics of this documents
what I would recommend is to find an author for the specific
goal of rewriting the document with one audience (policy makers
has my preference)
larry: I'm not convinced yet that we can't create a document
for multiple audiences
I would like Thomas to elaborate on why it's not possible
wendy: putting several audiences in the same document bring
some techno-determinism.
it is stronger to not allude to the law but demonstrate
technically some outcomes and reach policy conclusions that
might trigger clarification of the law
<masinter> "code is law"
<masinter>
[11]http://harvardmagazine.com/2000/01/code-is-law-html
[11] http://harvardmagazine.com/2000/01/code-is-law-html
<noah> I think the intention is not to say: "the policy must
follow the technology". I think the intention IS to say:
"please be aware of how hundreds of millions of copies of
software that people use today actually work"
<masinter> Wendy, are you're advising us not to say things that
you think are true but just shouldn't be said?
<wseltzer> masinter, I'm suggesting that the document would be
stronger if it omitted the references to law
<masinter> Wendy, why would it be stronger? for whom? Why is
what it says weak?
<wseltzer> masinter, because once it starts down the advocacy
path, it's easily dismissed as *mere* advocacy
noah: I don't want to completely avoid terms like "copying". I
think it's OK to say: "here are the things the Web actually
does as it operates. If some law were to outlaw "XXX" then we
would likely have to turn off all proxies on the Web, and
performance would tank."
<noah> I thought our goal was to set out terminology that would
be useful to those working in the legal domain.
Larry: I don't understand why it would be stronger if laws are
not referenced, as the goal is to remain technical
<masinter> i just think the results wouldn't be as useful
tlr: I wasn't saying that writing a document for multiple
audience is impossible, just that this document is not doing
that effectively
<masinter> i can believe it isn't there
<noah> tlr: ...and I think addressing one audience will be
easier than addressing many
tlr: the question is where the TAG can make a difference for
the good on that topic and for which audience
... using simpler language and being away from legal
implications
... right now the document is untargeted and doesn't work for
any audience
Ashok: I'm puzzled by those comments. THe audience is people
who make laws and make policies. There are no legal analysis in
the document, just wording saying that there are legal
disputes, for examples
timbl: embedding or linking is different and socially
different. Clarifying that for the press, policy makers, etc...
will help not making mistakes with using "linking"
<wseltzer> *how* are embedding and linking different?
tlr: the document identifies an audience, it doesn't work for
that audience, and some parts of the documents are clearly
written for different audiences
like the definition of linking in HTML is way too complicated
for lawyers, it seems written for technologists
<masinter> i like having motivating examples, though. i'd want
to leave the background section because most people don't
understand there are such issues
noah: the background section might go deeper than necessary for
legal issues, while the intro stays at a fairly high level,
could we do something with Thomas' comments?
squeeze section 2
<masinter> i'd rather elaborate or preface what we have
tlr: your foundation seems to be explaining difference between
linking and embedding to lawyers
<rigo> [12]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indecs_Content_Model
[12] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indecs_Content_Model
<rigo> for reuse
noah: the comments about technical details depends on the
technicality of the audience, which vary
wendy: the premise is that linking and embedding are different,
in which sense they are different? it might be difficult to
infer from the markup the intent of the user
<noah> NM: I'm asking how much savy we should assume on the
part of our audience. Clearly some lawyers have very little
technical knowledge, yet Judge Posner apparently hacks Java.
I'm assuming that lawyers who work on Web policy can be assumed
to have at least a vague notion of the role of HTML on the Web.
timbl: this have nothing to do with intent, as you can tell
what you want is your intent. If you use an iframe, and make a
link there is an underlying intent
<wseltzer> but not everyone who uses the protocol knows or
agrees with those intents
<noah> The HTML5 spec says of iframe "The iframe element
represents a nested browsing context." Seems pretty vague to
me.
<noah>
[13]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/embedded-conte
nt-0.html#the-iframe-element
[13]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/embedded-content-0.html#the-iframe-element
rigo: if you look at the document, and compare to what Tim just
said, the conclusion is that what Tim said is useful, but the
document doesn't say that.
... also we need to assess the intent between user clicking, a
robot following a link.
... I have identified 8 goals in that document, one of them is
the copyright issue. This issue alone is at the root of the
creation in policital groups
Larry: the goal was to try to represent the consensus of the
web community
if the W3C endorse a document that explains how the web works,
that has more value than any random statement.
Also the document is not explaining the meaning of life, so
rigo's comment is strange
<masinter> is the statement wrong, or just 'not enough' ?
<masinter> Rigo "Legislation that governs the possession and
distribution of unlawful material (such as child pornography,
information that is under copyright or material that is legally
suppressed through a gag order) often needs to exempt certain
types of services, "
<tlr> "often needs"
<tlr> on what basis does it need to?
<noah> FWIW, I'm inclined to let this discussion go for awhile,
but pretty soon we'll have to start thinking about how we move
forward.
<Ashok> Thomas, would more detail help in the example sentence?
<rigo> 5.1.6 Licensing
<noah>
[14]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/PublishingAndLinkingOnTheWeb
-20121015.html#licensing
[14]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/PublishingAndLinkingOnTheWeb-20121015.html#licensing
<rigo> Websites indicate a license that describes how the
information within the website can be reused by others.
<rigo> Just as with HTTP headers, robots.txt and sitemaps,
there can be no technical guarantees that crawlers will honor
license information within a site.
<noah> " Websites indicate a license that describes how the
information within the website can be reused by others.
<noah> Just as with HTTP headers, robots.txt and sitemaps,
there can be no technical guarantees that crawlers will honor
license information within a site. However, to give well
behaved crawlers a chance of identifying the license under
which a page is published, websites should: "
timbl: rigo, can you give a concrete example?
<noah> Tim, I think I've quoted the licensing bit that Rigo's
talking about in the IRC log just above
rigo: in the publishing area, there can be business models
attached to it, and some business models may requires some
tehcnologies and obstacles
<masinter> what does 5.1.6 say about policy?
<masinter> there seems to be some concern about things being
out of scope "for the TAG to say"
tlr: in 5.1.6 the "should" list could be the subject of debates
another example is offline applications, where it's not really
about obscuring following links
<Zakim> noah, you wanted to talk about long term thrashing
<masinter> i needed detailed examples to understand the
high-level comments
noah: we receive comments, iterate, and produce new versions.
at long as it converge it is good. Looks like we are thrashing
here
<masinter> we removed all of the "best practices", although
they're still there if you view source
it is likely that even after processing all those comments we
would receive the same kind of comments
<masinter>
view-source:[15]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/publishingAndLin
kingOnTheWeb.html and look for <div class="practice">
[15] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/publishingAndLinkingOnTheWeb.html
rigo: some people, including in the TAG underestimate the
complexity, difficulty, etc... of explaining even a single
issue to policy makers
rigo:The main critique from me is: trying to do too many
things, each of which if done right would take much more work
than you probably would think.
<masinter> i think the detailed description of the interaction
of policy and technology probably belongs in a working group,
and that this is more of a survey of issues
rigo: e.g. could focus on bits such as "difference between
embedding and linking". That alone would be substantial work if
done right.
<tlr> masinter, a survey of issues doesn't belong on the
recommendation track
Larry: I think we intended more of a survey...hearing you say a
survey doesn't belong on REC track. Not sure, maybe.
larry: we started more with a survey in mind. I hear that the
survey does not belong to the REC track
<masinter> i think we have a couple of choices of where to go
ashok: we expect to have more reviews of that document, so we
shouldn't hurry up
tlr: it would be very useful to give clear expectations "what
the TAG want to achieve with that document"
the low-level point is that the LC announcement was not sent to
the chairs ML
<masinter> I think we got down this road because we were asked
if we could bring some clarity with respect to screwy legal
decisions.
<masinter> we
<masinter> we've gotten several different suggestions on how to
move forward
<masinter> saying less, fixing errors, pick one of several
audiences
<wseltzer> [leaves, thanks]
noah: needs guidance on how to proceed, rewrite, rescind,
etc...
<masinter> Want to hear from Jeni & Dan, who did most of the
initial work
<masinter> yes
timbl: how about having thomas, rigo or wendy work with the
editors?
<Ashok> +1 ti
<masinter> maybe a task force?
noah: if we have a focus that can attract their interest, then
sure
<tlr> I'm happy to agree to being a reviewer.
<Ashok> great!
<masinter> 1+ to working with a small group to work on one
section
<rigo> I identified the following goals in the document:
noah: does it include refocusing?
ashok: maybe
<rigo> - Daniel Glazman's issue: "you can't link to my site"
<rigo> - censorship and the web (various appearances thereof)/
illegal and harmful content
<rigo> - social meaning of linking
<rigo> - deep linking problems and access control
<rigo> - copyright, robots.txt and search engines
<rigo> - youth protection
<rigo> - linking
<masinter> . ACTION: tim to recruit task force to work on one
section?
tlr: is one goal to explain the technicality of linking, or the
social aspect of linking?
<noah> I think the TAG's competence is more toward explaining
technical details that are in fact important. So, I'd err on
the side of low level, with the goal that it be competent to
lawyers, not programmers.
<rigo> Law enforcement might require that a site owner keep =>
eDiscovery (big issue in US at the moment)
tlr: I started to review section by section the document, but
it didn't help as the main issues was the one I highlighted
first, the goal and the audience
<masinter> what does the web community need? To remove
uncertainty
tlr: I could send a detailed review, but the document should
not be fixed by focusing on details
<Zakim> masinter, you wanted to get back to the fundamentals
larry: we were asked to address concerns about regulatory
governance not matching the technology
<rigo> still more: reuse material => DRM
<tlr> you pick a specific audienc
<tlr> you pick specific topics
<tlr> you pick specific messages
<tlr> you write them up in a way that works for that audience
larry: I didn't hear from the commentor how to respond to the
need of the web community
<masinter> this is a place where governance doesn't match the
technology, or matches awkwardly, how can we help bring the web
<masinter> this isn't intended to be a statement by the TAG,
it's intended to be a statement by the web community, as
represented by W3C, and as originated by the TAG. That's the
reason for going to REC rather than Finding
<tlr> side note, the material about "re-users" doesn't make
much sense in the context it shows up in.
[re-statements of comments made earlier]
<rigo> I find actors and agents very useful!
<tlr>
[16]http://www.icann.org/en/groups/ssac/documents/sac-056-en.pd
f
[16] http://www.icann.org/en/groups/ssac/documents/sac-056-en.pdf
<masinter> what's the group that produced that?
tlr: the document above is descriptive on issues about
content-blocking
not prescriptive
<tlr> (just as an example for a well-written technology meets
policy document)
<Zakim> masinter, you wanted to suggest a task force
<masinter> Noah, you asked for discussion about next steps, so
i gave a process answer
<noah> Process answer is fine, but I'm hoping the process will
focus real soon on a set of goals that people believe are
achievable either soon, or incrementally.
Noah: the TAG needs to assess if it is a good use of our time
<masinter> alternative next step: uncomment the "findings" and
publish as "NOTE"
<masinter> suggest that W3C "should" take this up but not in
TAG
<masinter> thanks indeed
<Ashok> Larry, did you mean uncomment the best practices?
noah: let me know if we need to discuss this on jan 3rd, it
will be on the f2f agenda
<noah> ACTIOn-753?
<trackbot> ACTION-753 -- Larry Masinter to do first draft of
technical issues list for Jeff -- due 2012-10-22 --
PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot>
[17]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/753
[17] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/753
<noah> close ACTION-753
<trackbot> ACTION-753 do first draft of technical issues list
for Jeff closed
actions
<noah> ACTION-766?
<trackbot> ACTION-766 -- Noah Mendelsohn to respond to e-mail
on AWWW "typo" saying TAG did not agree that a change was
needed -- due 2012-11-15 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot>
[18]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/766
[18] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/766
<noah> close ACTION-766
<trackbot> ACTION-766 Respond to e-mail on AWWW "typo" saying
TAG did not agree that a change was needed closed
ADJOURNED
Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
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Default Present: Masinter, plinss, Thomas, Ashok_Malhotra, Noah_Mendelso
hn, noah, Rigo, Wendy, Yves, TimBL
Present: Masinter plinss Thomas Ashok_Malhotra Noah_Mendelsohn noah Rigo
Wendy Yves TimBL
Agenda: [22]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2012/12/20-agenda
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--
Baroula que barouleras, au tiéu toujou t'entourneras.
~~Yves
Received on Wednesday, 23 January 2013 15:06:12 UTC