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TAG telcon minutes from 2013-12-19

From: Henry S. Thompson <ht@inf.ed.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 16:24:07 +0000
To: www-tag@w3.org
Message-ID: <f5ba9fvo5i0.fsf@troutbeck.inf.ed.ac.uk>
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and below in text form.

                                   - DRAFT -

                  Technical Architecture Group Teleconference

12 Dec 2013

   See also: [2]IRC log


          Dan Appelquist, Tim Berners-Lee, Sergey Konstantinov, Yves
          Lafon, Peter Linss, Alex Russell, Jeni Tennison, Henry S.

          Anne van Kesteren

          Dan Appelquist

          Henry S. Thompson


    1. [3]London (7-9 January) F2F planning
    2. [4]Agenda page for January F2F
    3. [5]Extensible Web Submit
    4. [6]Spec reviews
    5. [7]Push API
    6. [8]Web Animation
    7. [9]Web Crypto
    8. [10]Upcoming events

London (7-9 January) F2F planning

   DKA: JT, all ready for us?

   JT: Yes, room booked, local arrangements page up and sent out

   JT: Go out for lunch, or have things laid on?

   <slightlyoff> I'd be happy to go out

   <slightlyoff> I feel like arranging lunch has been a burden for
   organizers so far

   TBL: Two catered in, one out

   JT: Will do
   ... Light breakfast too?

   DKA: Yes, please
   ... Developer meet-up -- looking for venue
   ... Hoping to get Google campus, not confirmed
   ... Fallback is GSMA
   ... This is all for evening of the 7th
   ... I'll put this up on Eventbrite
   ... Dinner out on evening of the 8th

Agenda page for January F2F

   <dka> [11]http://www.w3.org/wiki/TAG/Planning/2014-01-F2F

   <slightlyoff> oh good

   <slightlyoff> can we schedule time to discuss the layering of Web
   Components at the F2F?

   DKA: Invited Dominique HazaŽl-Massieux to join us to talk about
   "permissions" topic that he would like TAG input on.

   <slightlyoff> I think it'd be an important thing to review

   DKA: Hoping to invite Phil Archer to pick up on the Data activity

   <slightlyoff> sure

   <slightlyoff> also, the JSON thing

   <slightlyoff> it's coming! really!

   <timbl> :)

   <slightlyoff> do we want to talk about the JSON thing today?

   <slightlyoff> hrm...

   DKA: Yes, good, we'll put the Web Components topic on

   <slightlyoff> do we want to put any of the HTTP2 stuff on the agenda?
   is there anything new there?

   <JeniT> add capability URLs to agenda

   TBL: Timing for each day?

   DKA: 0830 for 0900 start
   ... End at 1730

Extensible Web Submit

   DKA: Still looking for a venue -- date is fixed for 4 April
   ... Downtown, or OK further afield
   ... Suggestions welcome

   <slightlyoff> Google is hard...but I can look

Spec reviews

   DKA: Push API, Web Animations, Web Crypto

Push API

   <slightlyoff> I'm prepared to talk about push API


   <slightlyoff> ah, yes

   <slightlyoff> [13]https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/push/raw-file/tip/index.html

   AR: Push API has some good parts and some less good parts
   ... I'm not happy with the layering aspects


   AR: Current spec says Navigator gets a Manager attached to it

function registerPush() {
    function(value) {
    function(reason) {alert("darn! "+ reason );}

   AR: Good promise-based registration
   ... Why is this different from [??]
   ... Why register for multiple servers?

if (navigator.hasPendingMessages("push")) {
  // do any special pre-processing before push messages are delivered
last_version = null; // initialize last message version
navigator.setMessageHandler("push", gotPush);
navigator.setMessageHandler("push-register", reRegisterPush);

   AR: worst part of API is this.
   ... setmessagehandler seems to suggest you'll be pushing a javascript
   message without a specific context.
   ... who wants this - in a world where if you close the tab you can't
   get push messages. Or is the idea that when the tab is reawakened you
   now get the push messages? And if so why are these not events just sent
   to the document?
   ... The use case isn't particularly clear.

   AR: These should just be events, instead of messages
   ... I think a good chunk of this needs to be events-based, rather than
   message delivery

   SK: I agree, I had the same difficulty figuring out the
   context/background assumptions

   SK: I think it's premature to send a review until these things are

   <dka> Suggest a way forward here: Alex can you capture your thoughts
   into the document, then send them over to the working group chairs and
   spec editors...

   <slightlyoff> I like this plan

   DKA: So we need to fold what AR said into SK's document ASAP, then send
   some kind of notification of our higher-level concerns (as opposed to a
   detailed review) to the WG, and ask them to join us on a call soon.

   <slightlyoff> +1

   AR: Right, the document as it stands is not ready for an implementer to

   DKA: We do have one call scheduled before the end of the year

   <slightlyoff> happy to draft something that that repo today to outline
   areas for discussion

   DKA: I will try to line them up for 19 December if we can move that

   <ht> +1

   <dka> +1

   <slightlyoff> SGTM, I can be there on the 19th

   SK: +1

   <plinss> +1

   <slightlyoff> yep, will do

   DKA: First step is to get AR's comments into the feedback document

   <slightlyoff> apologies for having delayed this discussion until this

   DKA: Let me know when that's done, and then I'll get in touch with the

Web Animation


   SK: Comments, anyone?

   AR: Where are they in the Process? Are they at Last Call?

   PL: Still [an ordinary] WD

   <slightlyoff> [16]http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/web-animations/

   <Yves> still regular WD, not even LC

   DKA: SK has raised some issues in his review [see above]
   ... Mostly not major, but levels of abstraction could be

   SK: I didn't find any major issues, I thought the spec was very good
   ... There are related contentious issues, and some weird behaviours are

   <slightlyoff> there are some real naming issues (the shed should be
   green!): "SeqGroup", "ParGroup", etc.

   SK: It's a very complicated spec, we really need another reviewer

   DKA: Can someone volunteer to spend the time

   <slightlyoff> I should...I've been asked to look at it from the Google
   side as well

   PL: I already volunteered, will do as soon as I can

   <slightlyoff> at least everything has constructors = )

   DKA: It would be good to finish this off by the F2F

   <slightlyoff> most of the Google folks are in Sydney

   DKA: And maybe have a live feedback session via IRC/Voice/...

   <slightlyoff> Tab's usually PST

   PL: Coming from the FX task force (CSS and SVG), mostly SVG input
   ... Timezones not v. friendly

Web Crypto


   <slightlyoff> my apologies that I haen't finished something coherent
   for crypto

   DKA: AR, ready to talk about this yet?
   ... There's been a lot of work going on

   AR: Group has a lot of challenges
   ... Particularly wrt scope
   ... Hard to manage many use-cases driving into every discussion
   ... Trying to decide about low- vs. high-level API
   ... Currently aiming for low-level
   ... Looking at streams vs. promises, worried about churn in the
   promises spec
   ... Question about including algorithms into discussion of
   ... I'm not too worried about the overall API
   ... I think we may need to get involved wrt layering
   ... So consider secure vs. insecure keys
   ... There's a use-case challenge there which hasn't been fully
   ... How can you talk about embedding MD5 in Javascript, when Javascript
   strings aren't byte arrays, for example, of layering.

   <dka> Does it make sense to schedule some f2f time in London on this
   with the wg chair Virginie?

   TBL: A well-defined coercion from string to bytes, would that help?

   AR: Absolutely -- TAG could usefully push for this

   TBL: From Crypto to TC39?

   AR: Probably better from the TAG

   <slightlyoff> +1

   DKA: Virginie, WG Chair of Crypto, is in France, perhaps could come to
   F2F to talk about this, and on Security on the Web topic
   ... Other topics?

Upcoming events

   DKA: Heads up wrt IETF in London, with STRINT workshop ahead

   <timbl> IETF is March 2-7, 2014

   <dka> [18]https://www.w3.org/2014/strint/

   DKA: Strengthening the Internet against Prevasive Monitoring
   ... Feeds into HTTP-2 discussion of TLS
   ... Adjourned

    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [19]scribe.perl version 1.135
    ([20]CVS log)
    $Date: 2013-12-20 16:12:49 $


   1. http://www.w3.org/
   2. http://www.w3.org/2013/12/12-tagmem-irc
   3. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/12/12-minutes.html#item01
   4. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/12/12-minutes.html#item02
   5. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/12/12-minutes.html#item03
   6. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/12/12-minutes.html#item04
   7. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/12/12-minutes.html#item05
   8. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/12/12-minutes.html#item08
   9. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/12/12-minutes.html#item09
  10. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2013/12/12-minutes.html#item10
  11. http://www.w3.org/wiki/TAG/Planning/2014-01-F2F
  12. https://github.com/w3ctag/spec-reviews/blob/c218958ce2c9b655282bd1ebdbe93e8902b423e1/2013/08/Push%20API.md
  13. https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/push/raw-file/tip/index.html
  14. https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/push/raw-file/tip/index.html#navigator-interface
  15. https://github.com/twirl/spec-reviews/blob/ceb61bdc7969f730475d23e338c31b05071b9ee6/2013/10/Web%20Animations.md
  16. http://dev.w3.org/fxtf/web-animations/
  17. https://github.com/w3ctag/spec-reviews/blob/master/2013/11/WebCrypto.md
  18. https://www.w3.org/2014/strint/
  19. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
  20. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

       Henry S. Thompson, School of Informatics, University of Edinburgh
      10 Crichton Street, Edinburgh EH8 9AB, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
                Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@inf.ed.ac.uk
                       URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/
 [mail from me _always_ has a .sig like this -- mail without it is forged spam]
Received on Friday, 20 December 2013 16:24:35 UTC

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