- From: Jeni Tennison <jeni@jenitennison.com>
- Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 17:10:26 +0100
- To: "www-tag@w3.org List" <www-tag@w3.org>
Draft minutes for September 1 Telcon are at
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/09/01-minutes.html
and in text below.
Cheers,
Jeni
---
- DRAFT -
W3C TAG Teleconference of 1 September 2011
01 Sep 2011
[2]Agenda
[2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/09/01-agenda
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2011/09/01-tagmem-irc
Attendees
Present
Noah, Tim, Peter, Ashok, Yves, Jeni, Norm
Regrets
Dan, Henry, Larry
Chair
Noah Mendelsohn
Scribe
Jeni Tennison
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Approve minutes of prior meeting(s)
2. [6]Administrative items
3. [7]ISSUE-67 (HTML-XML-Divergence-67): HTML / XML
Unification
4. [8]HTML5 Review: Microdata/RDFa
5. [9]Planning for Sept. 2011 F2F
6. [10]ACTION-590: Unicode normalization
7. [11]ACTION-510: RDF URI mappings in the HTML5 microdata
* [12]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<JeniT> scribenick: JeniT
<scribe> Scribe: Jeni Tennison
Noah: We may have a brief call next week, but probably not
<timbl> (I can't do next week anyway.)
Approve minutes of prior meeting(s)
<noah> [13]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/08/11-minutes
[13] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/08/11-minutes
RESOLUTION: Minutes of 11-august
([14]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/08/11-minutes) are approved
[14] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/08/11-minutes)
Administrative items
noah: please sign up to scribe
<noah> Scribing:
[15]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/09/F2FScribing.html
[15] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/09/F2FScribing.html
ISSUE-67 (HTML-XML-Divergence-67): HTML / XML Unification
<noah> [16]http://www.w3.org/2010/html-xml/snapshot/report.html
[16] http://www.w3.org/2010/html-xml/snapshot/report.html
Norm: The task force has produced a report
... it's been edited a few times, there's some new text from noah
for an introduction
... the main stumbling block is that we want to make it more
publically visible
... we would like TAG's permission to clean it up and make it public
as a Draft XXXX
<timbl> Draft TAG finding
Norm: and respond to feedback
ashok: I would like to see some conclusions in the report
... even if they were preliminary
... in Section 2.5 on XML parsing
<timbl> I see: 3 Conclusions TBD.
ashok: it mentions efforts to make it more forgiving, but they are
not detailed
... I'd like to know what the thinking is and where we could go
Norm: those include XML5, which should be in the references
<noah> Could write informally, indicating which conclusions look
pretty firm, and which are still controversial/poorly understood
Norm: other people have done work in this space
<timbl> Reference to Polyglot?
Norm: about the conclusions: I can put something in, but it depends
on what the community thinks
... the TF hasn't got any conclusions yet, except that these are
ways of addressing the problems raised
ashok: and on XML5, if you could extract some recommendations
Norm: Anne's done a very good job, but I don't think anyone's looked
at it with care
... we'd need to spin up a WG to look at requirements
timbl: there's a polyglot document, is there a reference to polyglot
Norm: the polyglot doc is mentioned in the text in 2.1
<noah> NW: Ooops, need to clean up references
timbl: one conclusion is that if you're publishing documents, then
being conservative in what you produce involves using polyglot
... there's another discussion about what W3C should publish in
... eg using polyglot as an example for the HTML and XML communities
Norm: I don't think there are downsides in publishing documents that
can be polyglot, in polyglot
... use an HTML5 parser if you're going to be parsing HTML, is a
good conclusion
<Zakim> noah, you wanted to talk a bit more about xml5, scope and
conclusions
noah: it isn't clear to me how the current structure of the document
relates to its scope
... the original scope was to do more than use cases
... it was to look at the overlap between the two stacks of HTML and
XML
... to avoid unnecessary duplication between the stacks
... there was some attempt to do that but it was hard to get common
ground
... so use cases were a starting point
... the problem statements include the resolution
... in the draft, we need to talk about the scope of the task force
... we need to bring out new technology directions and conclusions
... is this saying that all we can do is use cases?
... if so why? or is there something broader?
Norm: I can attempt to draft something around that
... personally, we tried to find common ground, and use cases helped
to look at that
... after looking at the use cases, there didn't seem to be any
problems to solve
noah: so the document should say that
Norm: ok, this is good feedback
... we'll address this in a new draft
... get the TF to agree to it
... then come back and see if that helps
noah: is that practical?
Norm: nothing new will happen before the F2F
<noah> ACTION: Noah to ping Norm end of Sept. on revised HTML/XML
report per discussion on 1 Sept 2011 [recorded in
[17]http://www.w3.org/2011/09/01-tagmem-minutes.html#action01]
[17] http://www.w3.org/2011/09/01-tagmem-minutes.html#action01
<trackbot> Created ACTION-591 - Ping Norm end of Sept. on revised
HTML/XML report per discussion on 1 Sept 2011 [on Noah Mendelsohn -
due 2011-09-08].
<noah> ACTION-591 Due 2011-09-30
<trackbot> ACTION-591 Ping Norm end of Sept. on revised HTML/XML
report per discussion on 1 Sept 2011 due date now 2011-09-30
HTML5 Review: Microdata/RDFa
<noah> ScribeNick: noah
Norm: Jeni is taking the lead for the TAG on the microdata/RDFa work
... Looking for perspectives from the TAG
JeniT: There is disagreement as to whether the task force is going
to be an effective way to make progress. Some sense that each 'camp'
is moving forward mostly independenlty, leading to them being out
there side-by-side
... Even if so, my personal feeling is that there is useful work for
a group of some sort to do in helping to either identify subsets and
guidance, change them to bring them together, give guidance to
people doing vocabularies, etc.
... I would like to know what the TAG thinks about undertaking an
effort framed in that way, and whether it's a good use of my "TAG
time" in particular.
... Also curious whether we should keep pushing harder for
convergence.
TimBL: My initial hopes for the task force and looking at your blog
post... I had the impression that you Jeni thought there was some
overlap, and perhaps that some syntax could be shared. I thought if
that was the case, a task force could take a real technical look.
... Obviously, you have to get buy in. If there was a small change,
e.g. to RDFa, would people be willing to consider such a shift, and
similarly for microdata?
... I think Manu's letter is on the pessimistic side
<JeniT>
[18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Aug/0050.html
[18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Aug/0050.html
TimBL: If that's technically impossible, I'm willing to put away the
task force. If it's technically feasible but politically
problematic, then we should hold people accountable if they are
intransigent. The future is longer than the past.
JeniT: I always thought if we were going to get convergence it won't
be by "banging heads". Rather, it will likely be by gradually
evolving the languages to the point where there is defacto
commonality, which people will come to recognize and value.
... I'm somewhat inclined to do this through e.g. change proposals
and bug proposals. It's important that there also be a polictical
context in which such proposals would get the right attention.
Norm: F2F session
JeniT: Probably not
Norm: OK, we will not hold time, but I would welcome it if you ask
for a session, even for informal brainstorming.
<JeniT> ScribeNick: JeniT
Planning for Sept. 2011 F2F
[19]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/09/13-agenda.html
[19] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/09/13-agenda.html
noah: a lot of the required reading is already available
... my intention is to wrap about 3pm on 3rd day
... the product pages have been very helpful to me
... the structure is to first take a look at each of those, and then
some of the other things we have
... section 1 has proposed goals
<noah> Goals:
<noah> Make progress on our five top priority products:
<noah> Prepare client-side state finding for publication (unless we
decide there's too much more to do on #! and/or RDFa use of fragids
<noah> Review status of RDFa/Microdata task force, and set up
appropriate ACTIONs for tracking
<noah> Make progress on our other active products
<noah> Give guidance and feedback to Norm Walsh and the subcommittee
working on XML/HTML Unification
<noah> Rebalance TAG member assignments (noting, e.g., Jeni's new
responsibilities for RDFa/Microdata)
noah: in client-side state area, we are close to publishing a TAG
finding
... ashok has a draft for review; vote at the meeting to publish
... next goal will change (reviewing status of RDFa/microdata TF)
... that's now a maybe
... we also need to rebalance from people who are overburdened
... HTML5 Last Call -- Overview
... this closed on August 3rd
... the only thing we wanted to take forward was microdata/RDFa
... we will review and hopefully declare success
... track microdata/RDFa as its own item
... this will be a short session, to make sure we haven't lost loose
ends
... might look briefly at microdata/RDFa
... ISSUE-60 (webApplicationState-60): Web Applications: Client-side
state
<noah> TAG Finding: Identifying Application State Due date: 1 Nov
2011
<noah> 25 June 2011: Draft for TAG review based on June 2011 F2F
review
<noah> 1 Sept 2011: Last-call quality draft
<noah> W3C Note with FPWD (Raman's version) indicating this work no
longer on Rec. track (to be done after reference to finding
available)
noah: goal is detailed review and a vote on the draft
... also, when Raman did a 1st version it was put on the Rec track
... we agreed for Raman's draft to be published as a Note
... at the F2F in June
ashok: this is Raman's old write-up from 2009?
noah: yes, but it's the version that was published as a FPWD, so the
W3C process means we have to do this
... we can indicate that the TAG finding is the follow-on to that
work
<Yves> that's indeed right, final note with s SoTD explaining where
the work is now
noah: ISSUE-66 (mimeAndWeb-66-27): IETF Draft on MIME and the Web
<noah> Product page:
[20]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/mimeweb.html
[20] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/mimeweb.html
<noah> Larry emails:
[21]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Aug/0099.html
[21] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Aug/0099.html
noah: Larry has said in the last few weeks saying that doing a
separate draft from the TAG is no longer the right goal
... lots of efforts at the IETF that cover the space
... recommends refocussing on reviewing those
... discussion on whether to do that or not, and what to say to W3C
management
<jar> +1
noah: ISSUE-60 (webApplicationState-60): Web Applications: Fragment
ID Semantics and MIME Types
... ISSUE-57 (HttpRedirections-57), ISSUE-63
(metadataArchitecture-63) and ISSUE-14 (HttpRange-14) : URI
Definition Discovery; Metadata Architecture
jar: ISSUE-57 and Persistence are carry over from June
noah: ISSUE-60 (webApplicationState-60): Web Applications:
Client-side Storage
... ashok and I have an action to propose an activity here
ashok: I've been trying to find apps that use client-side storage,
and I've not been very successful
... one wonderful app and a bunch of toys
noah: I'd have thought Google mobile apps would have been poster
children
ashok: sure, we can argue that you can do these things offline
... I was trying to find things where you can write different styles
of apps
... so if there are more examples, that would be wonderful
noah: if you leave off the Google apps, you're leaving off the main
interesting things
... if you have a choice between local and cloud storage, there's a
tendency to do it in the cloud
... so it's natural to see the main uses as tackling network
connectivity issues
ashok: different parts of the elephant
noah: ISSUE-50 (URNsAndRegistries-50): Persistent references
... I think we're invested in this work
jar: it's in a continuing brainstorming stage
... F2Fs are the best opportunity to talk about this
<jar> we're ready to do a product page
<jar> or will be at end of session
noah: ISSUE-25 (deepLinking-25): Can publication of hyperlinks
constitute copyright infringment?
... draft was reviewed at last F2F
... were supposed to get some legal advice
... Dan says he hasn't had much luck yet
jar: I can get thinh to review it
noah: might we find a time for him to dial in?
jar: I'll mention it
noah: ISSUE-67 (HTML-XML-Divergence-67): HTML / XML Unification
... we just covered that
... there are also optional items
... carried over bodies from June F2F
... Web Applications: Design of APIs for Web Applications
(minimization)
<noah> [22]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/apiminimization.html
[22] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/apiminimization.html
<noah> Key deliverables with dates:
<noah> By 15 October 2011: an approved TAG finding on API
minimization
<noah> Schedules:
<noah> Initial draft finding for community review 2011-07-31
noah: my inclination is to have a session to straighten out a
realistic schedule
... Product: Coordination with IAB/IETF on architecture of web
applications: Joint session with Internet Architecture Board
... we had the joint phone session with the IAB
... we talked about trying to find other times to meet jointly
Yves: I think F2F time would be a waste
<noah> ACTION-565?
<trackbot> ACTION-565 -- Noah Mendelsohn to talk to Bernard about
possible IAB/TAG co-location -- due 2011-08-16 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [23]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/565
[23] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/565
<noah> Noah to schedule ACTION-565 for telcon, not F2F
<noah> ACTION-565?
<trackbot> ACTION-565 -- Noah Mendelsohn to talk to Bernard about
possible IAB/TAG co-location -- due 2011-08-16 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> [24]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/565
[24] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/565
noah: ACTION-545: Privacy
... Web Applications: Security
<noah> [25]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/08/11-minutes#item04
[25] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/08/11-minutes#item04
noah: working on guidance from 11 August to have at most 1/2 hour
... on security, we have John Kemp's work
... but we haven't identified who in the TAG should be doing
anything, or what it should be
ashok: one thought is to start a security wiki to spell out the
state of the art on the web
... probably worthwhile to also have a wiki about privacy
... as a spot where people can write about what's going on
noah: if other things crowd these out, they probably won't happen
ashok: I think it's worth speaking briefly about whether we ought to
start a wiki
noah: the only reason I'm hesitant is because that might be hard to
do briefly
ashok: I think it's important because privacy and security are
central
... I think we should have something
noah: RFC 3023bis and IRI
... is there anything that I missed for the agenda?
... if there are any corrections on relative priorities
plinss: Unicode normalisation?
<jar> hmm.... we do need to talk about 3023 even if briefly...
ACTION-590: Unicode normalization
<noah> Email from Addison Phillips
[26]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jun/0188.html
[26] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Jun/0188.html
plinss: This gets interesting in how it impacts HTML5, APIs and so
on
... I think it's something that TAG should be working on
noah: some others were saying that other people have it as their day
job
timbl: does the 2nd paragraph mean that current guidelines can't be
technically implemented?
plinss: they're not being implemented because they're hard to
implement for performance reasons
... the TAG needs to say that this is important, across specs
... or to say too little too late and forget it
noah: would it make sense for you (plinss) to write something that
the TAG might say (to the private address)
... it sounds like something that we would write email to address
rather than a finding
... we can then discuss that email
plinss: I can do that
ashok: I wonder if we should have Addison come on a TAG telcon to
tell us what's going on
noah: yes, but it would have to be after the F2F
... we could send an email to Addison
... saying we're working on a position
... is this worth F2F time
plinss: I think it's worth a little bit of time
<noah> ACTION Plinss to draft possible TAG position statement on
Unicode, and alert Addison Phillips of our intention to attempt to
get agreement starting in October after the F2F
<trackbot> Created ACTION-592 - Draft possible TAG position
statement on Unicode, and alert Addison Phillips of our intention to
attempt to get agreement starting in October after the F2F [on Peter
Linss - due 2011-09-08].
ACTION-510: RDF URI mappings in the HTML5 microdata
noah: does Hixie dropping the section resolve your concern, timbl?
timbl: yes, that resolves one concern, raising the concern about no
standard mapping from microdata to RDF
noah: ok, we need more discussion of it
timbl: it comes under the TF discussion
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Noah to ping Norm end of Sept. on revised HTML/XML
report per discussion on 1 Sept 2011 [recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2011/09/01-tagmem-minutes.html#action01]
[27] http://www.w3.org/2011/09/01-tagmem-minutes.html#action01
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
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--
Jeni Tennison
http://www.jenitennison.com
Received on Sunday, 4 September 2011 16:11:07 UTC