- From: ashok malhotra <ashok.malhotra@oracle.com>
- Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:45:55 -0700
- To: "www-tag@w3.org" <www-tag@w3.org>
See http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes.html
Or as text below
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
TAG WEEKLY
01 Apr 2010
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2010/04/01-tagmem-irc
Attendees
Present
Noah Mendelsohn, Dan Connolly, Dan Appelquist, Larry
Masinter, Ashok Malhotra, Jonathan Rees, Tim Berners-Lee
Regrets
John Kemp, Henry Thompson
Chair
Noah Mendelsohn
Scribe
Ashok Malhotra
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]Convene
2. [5]HTML 5 review: [$1\47]ISSUE-41 (LanguageVersioning-41):
HTML5
3. [6]HTML WG [$1\47]ISSUE-81: "representation" instead of
"resource"
* [7]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<scribe> scribenick: Ashok
<scribe> scribe: Ashok_Malhotra
Convene
<DanC> RESOLVED: to cancel TAG weekly telcon 8 Apr
<DanC> (resolved last week, I gather; just a reminder)
Minutes of March 4 have been checked in by DanA
<DKA> [8]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/04-minutes.html
[8] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/04-minutes.html
Minutes of March 11
<noah> [9]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/11-minutes.html
[9] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/11-minutes.html
<DanC> PROPOSED: to approve 11 March, noting DKA's regrets
DanA: I was not on the call on 3/11 but gave regrets
RESOLUTION: Minutes of March 11 are approved. URL is above
<DKA> Minutes of March 25 are posted.
<DKA> [10]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/25-minutes.html
[10] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/25-minutes.html
Noah: We need to tell TPAC folks about TAG meeting
... suggest we say "TAG members will be on a best effort basis... we
will meet Mon and Fri"
<scribe> ACTION: Noah to verify with TAG TPAC plans and communicate
to W3C teem due April 13 [recorded in
[11]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action01]
[11] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action01
<trackbot> Created ACTION-423 - Verify with TAG TPAC plans and
communicate to W3C teem due April 13 [on Noah Mendelsohn - due
2010-04-08].
<DanC> action-423 due 13 Apr
<trackbot> ACTION-423 Verify with TAG TPAC plans and communicate to
W3C teem due April 13 due date now 13 Apr
<DanC> action-415: see
[12]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/24-tagmem-minutes.html
[12] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/24-tagmem-minutes.html
<trackbot> ACTION-415 Edit ftf minutes day 1 (Wednesday 24 March)
notes added
<DanC> close action-415
<trackbot> ACTION-415 Edit ftf minutes day 1 (Wednesday 24 March)
closed
HTML 5 review: [$1\47]ISSUE-41 (LanguageVersioning-41): HTML5
Noah: We don't have a shared tracking system with HTML folks
We opened ACTION 407. Need to respond
<masinter> action-407?
<trackbot> ACTION-407 -- Henry S. Thompson to propose an update to
DanC's prose from
[13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0878.htm
l to explicitly reference or encorporate the HTML history, similarly
to the way 2854 does -- due 2010-04-13 -- OPEN
[13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0878.html
<trackbot> [14]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/407
[14] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/407
<DanC> looking at
[15]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/26-minutes.html ...
[15] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/26-minutes.html
Noah: Maybe nothing to do here since Henry is not here
<DanC> text/html registration is
[16]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/26-minutes.html#item07
[16] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/26-minutes.html#item07
<masinter> i think there's a bigger architectural issue about MIME
types, what they're for, how they're used on the Web
LMM: I'm concerned that there is not a good understanding about MIME
types
... there is a lot of confusion. This relates to a lot of open
issues.
<jar_> [17]http://www.w3.org/1999/09/specification.html
[17] http://www.w3.org/1999/09/specification.html
<DanC> issue-1?
<trackbot> ISSUE-1 -- Should W3C WGs define their own media types?
-- RAISED
<trackbot> [18]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/1
[18] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/1
LMM: I think we should write a finding about MIME types
Noah: I'm happy to entertain the proposal
<jar_> masinter: A mime type doesn't license anyone to do anything
Noah: but Paul wants feedback soon
... I suggest we tell Paul we are working on it but it will be a bit
late
<masinter> I think we should take up the bigger issue
<DKA> +1 to your suggested approach, Noah.
<masinter> I'd rather have correct feedback than bad feedback sooner
<masinter> issue-1?
<trackbot> ISSUE-1 -- Should W3C WGs define their own media types?
-- RAISED
<trackbot> [19]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/1
[19] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/1
<DanC> (on that page, it says "State: PENDING REVIEW")
<DKA> [20]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime
[20] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime
DanC: We have a finding on MIME types from April 2004
<DanC> "Internet Media Type registration, consistency of use"
DanC: It says you should have a MIME type ... not let spec and type
get out of sync
<masinter> It doesn't say what MIME types mean, whether they should
be sniffed, whether it's reasonable to write recommendation "The
document FOOBAR-XML can be served as A or B"
DanA: This finding reads to me like RTFM
<masinter> it doesn't give guidelines on redefinition of MIME types,
about change controllers
DanA: I think Larry was suggesting something in the Web Arch
<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note
[21]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime
[21] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime
DanC: It will be yet more stuff to read ... It's all documented ...
Noah: I'm sympathetic to writing findings
<masinter> I'm proposing updating
[22]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime, not writing a new
finding.
[22] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime
<DanC> (I'd be happy to see masinter pull a rabbit out of a hat, so
to speak.)
<masinter> the RFCs on MIME types don't talk about MIME types in the
web, for example, they focus on email
Noah: there is a lot we have been discussing that existing findings
don't address
<masinter> don't mention use of MIME types in content-negotiation
Noah: who can put some effort into it?
<masinter> could address the text/html application/xhtml+xml issue
<DanC> ("content negotiation" doesn't occur in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime . interesting.)
[23] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime
Noah: When you start a finding there is a chance the group will not
approve it
... we need someone to step up
LMM: I'm willing to work on it
<DKA> I will be willing to help.
<DanC> . ACTION Masinter: draft update to TAG mime type finding
(with DanA) to address [KEYWORDS, please?]
Noah: Due date f2f?
LMM: I will start some discussions on www-tag
<masinter> i will have an action to propose changes on www-tag in
the next 3 days
<masinter> and another action to prepare a proposed update to
finding based on that discussion by F2F
<noah> Larry, Dan wants keywords
DanC: Need keyword to say what's wrong with the finding
Noah: Need guidance on how to respond to PaulC
<jar_> . ACTION Masinter: propose some changes/additions to
0430-mime, due in 3 days
Noah: we have ACTION-407, dates have slipped a bit
<masinter> ACTION: Masinter to propose some changes/additions to
0430-mime, due in 3 days [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action02]
[24] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action02
<trackbot> Created ACTION-424 - Propose some changes/additions to
0430-mime, due in 3 days [on Larry Masinter - due 2010-04-08].
<masinter> ACTION: Masinter to draft updated 0430-mine, with help
from DanA, due by next TAG F2F, based on www-tag discussion
[recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action03]
[25] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action03
<trackbot> Created ACTION-425 - Draft updated 0430-mine, with help
from DanA, due by next TAG F2F, based on www-tag discussion [on
Larry Masinter - due 2010-04-08].
HTML WG [$1\47]ISSUE-81: "representation" instead of "resource"
Noah: PaulC sent mail saying they had a concern with our planning
esp. Issue 81
... I said it was closed
DanC: It was pending review ... I thought it would be on f2f agenda
Noah: Oops missed that
<noah> action-389?
<trackbot> ACTION-389 -- Larry Masinter to take Dan's proposal on
resource/representation and turn it into a change proposal -- due
2010-02-25 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/389
[26] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/389
<Zakim> jar, you wanted to say "document"
<masinter> (can't hear over noise here, will respond to IRC but not
phone)
JAR: I remember I exchanged mail w/DanC
... seems straightforward ... suggest HTML5 revert to language used
by HTML4 --- replace "resource" with "document"
Noah: What about representation?
JAR: Not used in HTML4
Noah: Someone should step up and say "here is a story we can tell
HTML" otherwise we can say we have changed our mind and will not
provide input
DanC: It's editorial, I don't want to work on editorial stuff
... We are discussing resource and representation but no one seem
inclined to work on it
JAR: There are many occurrences of "resource" in the document
<timbl> RT @aetxebeste: RT @openstreetmap: Announcing
closedstreetmap.org [27]http://post.ly/X2pg
[27] http://post.ly/X2pg
TimBL: How many of those cannot be turned into "document"
<timbl> sorry clipboard fail
<timbl> [28]http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/Overview.html
[28] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/Overview.html
JAR: How strongly does Tim feel about this ... inconsistent use of
resource
... inconsistent with other usage
<timbl> curl [29]http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/Overview.html | grep -i
resource | wc => 659 7123 65235
[29] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/Overview.html
Others feel "resource" means a sequence of bytes with a media type
<jar_> danc: Ian gives evidence that 'resource' is already used in
w3c documents to mean bytes (+ media type etc)
<DanC> [[
<DanC> Ian points out usage that suggests "a resource is a bag of
bits"
<DanC> in HTML 4, CSS, SVG etc.
<DanC>
[30]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/1132.htm
l
[30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/1132.html
<DanC> ]]
<DanC> --
[31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Dec/0070.html
[31] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Dec/0070.html
<timbl> "This specification defines an abstract language for
describing documents and applications, and some APIs for interacting
with in-memory representations of resources that use this language."
<timbl> 1.6
<timbl> "There are various concrete syntaxes that can be used to
transmit resources that use this abstract language, two of which are
defined in this specification."
<noah> Ian's mail:
[32]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/1132.htm
l
[32] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/1132.html
Noah: I don't find his examples compelling
JAR: Agrees
<DanC> (rfc2616 is what? )
<masinter> the term "resource" is ambiguous
<masinter> so you can easily find documents that use it in lots of
ways
<DanC> (I think rfc2616 is replaced by
[33]http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3986.txt )
[33] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3986.txt
JAR: If Tim is happy, I'm happy
<masinter> can we really address editorial issues one-by-one
<masinter>
[34]http://masinter.blogspot.com/2010/03/resources-are-angels-urls-a
re-pins.html
[34] http://masinter.blogspot.com/2010/03/resources-are-angels-urls-are-pins.html
<jar_> apparently.
Noah: I find this as reasoning from the converse
<masinter> the MIME type finding update could also talk about
resources & representations?
<masinter> or maybe it should be an update to webarch?
Noah: argues from XML Schema where the wording is not great!
DanC: It's an editorial matter
<timbl> "Indeed. Nor do resources. The URL
"[35]http://twitter.com/hixie" has as its
[35] http://twitter.com/hixie
<timbl> significance "use the HTTP protocol on the server with host
name
<timbl> 'twitter.com' on port 80 with path '/hixie'"; it doesn't
have any more
Noah: I think it's more than editorial because usage may be
confusingly different
<timbl> actual significance than that."
<timbl> T
<timbl> his is nt what web arch says, it is a diff philosophy
<masinter> as chair of HTTP WG at the time, I can say
authoritatively that 2616 was the result of a battle over functional
behavior, and editorial issues were definitely second priority
<jar_> Ian's significance claim not a falsifiable claim; irrelevant.
LMM: I wonder about the value of taking it one word at a time
editorially
Noah: Dicussion of URI and URL discussion was fruitful
... What would TAG like to tell the HTML WG?
Tim: Represenation is a messy word
JAR: I suggest "document" as alternative to html5:resource
<timbl> Trouble is, I like "document" as an alterntive for
"resource" - not "representation".
<timbl> How about "file"?
<timbl> That is a set of bits
<jar_> HTML4 uses "document"... that seems good... it reads well
<timbl> "A URL is a string used to identify a resource".
<timbl> " 2.5.1 is fine
<DanC> I hear TimBL saying he likes "document" as a synonym for
webarch:resource
<timbl> No, I like "document" as a synonym for webarch:resource
<timbl> webarch:InformationResource
<timbl> for webarch:InformationResource
<timbl> I like "document" as a synonym for
webarch:InformationResource
<timbl> Phew
<noah> So, that's what Tim meant...
<timbl> How about "file" as a set of bits
<timbl> and representation as the combination of returned metadata
and the file
DKA: Asks about the state of play on the issue
DanC: I sent comments to TAG not the editors
DKA: Why not ask editors to put in explanotory note at the start of
the document
<timbl> I note [36]http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/Overview.html has
scripts which prevent it from being used easily
[36] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/Overview.html
<timbl> [37]http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html
[37] http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html
<timbl> "A script on this page is busy"
Noah: Do we really need to edit the source?
<timbl> Currently, "resource" is used inconsisently within the spec.
Therefore, it would have to be edited by a person,
<DanC> the status section of the editor's draft notes
[38]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/ and svn checkout
[39]http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/
[38] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/
[39] http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/
<DanC> (inconsistently? I haven't seen that. could you point out 2
inconsistent uses, tim? that could)
Tim: Yes
... sometimes it says a URI identifies a resource
<DanC> [40]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/
[40] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/
Noah: They think we offered to do some drafting but we have not
<timbl> ) --><tr><td> <code title="">abreve;</code> </td> <td>
U+00103 </td> <td> <span>ă</span> </td> <tr><td> <code
title="">ac;</code> </td> <td> U+0223E </td> <td>
<span>∾</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">acd;</code> </td>
<td> U+0223F </td> <td> <span>∿</span> </td> <tr><td> <code
title="">acirc;</code> </td> <td> U+000E2 </td> <td>
<span>â</span> </td> <tr class="impl"><td> <code
title="">acirc</code> </td> <td> U+000E2 </td> <td> <span
<timbl> title="">â</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with
missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr class="impl"><td>
<code title="">acirc</code> </td> <td> U+000E2 </td> <td>
<span>â</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing
semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr><td> <code
title="">acute;</code> </td> <td> U+000B4 </td> <td>
<span>´</span> </td> <tr class="impl"><td> <code
title="">acute</code> </td> <td> U+000B4 </td> <td> <
<timbl> title="">´</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with
missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr class="impl"><td>
<code title="">acute</code> </td> <td> U+000B4 </td> <td>
<span>´</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing
semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr><td> <code
title="">acy;</code> </td> <td> U+00430 </td> <td>
<span>а</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">aelig;</code>
</td> <td> U+000E6 </td> <td> <span>æ</
<timbl> </td> <tr class="impl"><td> <code title="">aelig</code>
</td> <td> U+000E6 </td> <td> <span title="">æ</span> </td>
</tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing semicolon for legacy support
only) --><tr class="impl"><td> <code title="">aelig</code> </td>
<td> U+000E6 </td> <td> <span>æ</span> </td> </tr><!--
(invalid entity with missing semicolon for legacy support only)
--><tr><td> <code title="">af;</code> </td> <td> U+02061 </td> <td>
<span>⁡</span
<timbl> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">afr;</code> </td> <td> U+1D51E
</td> <td> <span>  </span> </td> <tr><td> <code
title="">agrave;</code> </td> <td> U+000E0 </td> <td>
<span>à</span> </td> <tr class="impl"><td> <code
title="">agrave</code> </td> <td> U+000E0 </td> <td> <span
title="">à</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with
missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr class="impl"><td>
<code title="">agrave</code> </td> <td> U+000E0 </t
<timbl> <td> <span>à</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity
with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr><td> <code
title="">alefsym;</code> </td> <td> U+02135 </td> <td>
<span>ℵ</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">aleph;</code>
</td> <td> U+02135 </td> <td> <span>ℵ</span> </td> <tr><td>
<code title="">alpha;</code> </td> <td> U+003B1 </td> <td>
<span>α</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">amacr;</code>
</td> <td> U+00101 </td> <td
<timbl> <span>ā</span> </td> <tr><td> <code
title="">amalg;</code> </td> <td> U+02A3F </td> <td>
<span>⨿</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">amp;</code>
</td> <td> U+00026 </td> <td> <span>&</span> </td> <tr
class="impl"><td> <code title="">amp</code> </td> <td> U+00026 </td>
<td> <span title="">&</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity
with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr
class="impl"><td> <code title="">amp</code> </td> <td> U+0002
<timbl> </td> <td> <span>&</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid
entity with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr><td>
<code title="">and;</code> </td> <td> U+02227 </td> <td>
<span>∧</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">andand;</code>
</td> <td> U+02A55 </td> <td> <span>⩕</span> </td> <tr><td>
<code title="">andd;</code> </td> <td> U+02A5C </td> <td>
<span>⩜</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">andslope;</code>
</td> <td> U+02A58 </td> <td>
<timbl> <span>⩘</span> </td> <tr><td> <code
title="">andv;</code> </td> <td> U+02A5A </td> <td>
<span>⩚</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">ang;</code>
</td> <td> U+02220 </td> <td> <span>∠</span> </td> <tr><td>
<code title="">ange;</code> </td> <td> U+029A4 </td> <td>
<span>⦤</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">angle;</code>
</td> <td> U+02220 </td> <td> <span>∠</span> </td> <tr><td>
<code title="">angmsd;</code> </td> <td> U+02221 </td> <
<timbl> <span>∡</span> </td> <tr><td> <code
title="">angmsdaa;</code> </td> <td> U+029A8 </td> <td>
<span>⦨</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">angmsdab;</code>
</td> <td> U+029A9 </td> <td> <span>⦩</span> </td> <tr><td>
<code title="">angmsdac;</code> </td> <td> U+029AA </td> <td>
<span>⦪</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">angmsdad;</code>
</td> <td> U+029AB </td> <td> <span>⦫</span> </td> <tr><td>
<code title="">angmsdae;</code> </t
<timbl> <td> U+029AC </td>
<timbl> this is not an editable editor's draft.
<timbl> Things like that do not made a draft editable.
Noah: I'm happy to delegate the response to Paul to someone else
<timbl> I would like the TAG to ask the HTML WG to change the
document so that the same word "resource" is not used for different
concepts.
<DanC> I understand the position of the editor so that it's already
not used for different concepts.
Noah: We can make correction without having access to the source
... we can copy/paste from a browse window
... I will communicate with Paul informally
ADJOURNED
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Masinter to draft updated 0430-mine, with help from
DanA, due by next TAG F2F, based on www-tag discussion [recorded in
[41]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Masinter to propose some changes/additions to
0430-mime, due in 3 days [recorded in
[42]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Noah to verify with TAG TPAC plans and communicate to
W3C teem due April 13 [recorded in
[43]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action01]
[41] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action03
[42] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action02
[43] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action01
[End of minutes]
--
All the best, Ashok
Received on Friday, 2 April 2010 16:47:38 UTC