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Minutes of 1 April 2010 checked in

From: ashok malhotra <ashok.malhotra@oracle.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:45:55 -0700
Message-ID: <4BB61F43.2010702@oracle.com>
To: "www-tag@w3.org" <www-tag@w3.org>
See http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes.html

Or as text below

  [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

                              TAG WEEKLY

01 Apr 2010

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2010/04/01-tagmem-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Noah Mendelsohn, Dan Connolly, Dan Appelquist, Larry
          Masinter, Ashok Malhotra, Jonathan Rees, Tim Berners-Lee

   Regrets
          John Kemp, Henry Thompson

   Chair
          Noah Mendelsohn

   Scribe
          Ashok Malhotra

Contents

     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]Convene
         2. [5]HTML 5 review: [$1\47]ISSUE-41 (LanguageVersioning-41):
            HTML5
         3. [6]HTML WG [$1\47]ISSUE-81: "representation" instead of
            "resource"
     * [7]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________

   <scribe> scribenick: Ashok

   <scribe> scribe: Ashok_Malhotra

Convene

   <DanC> RESOLVED: to cancel TAG weekly telcon 8 Apr

   <DanC> (resolved last week, I gather; just a reminder)

   Minutes of March 4 have been checked in by DanA

   <DKA> [8]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/04-minutes.html

      [8] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/04-minutes.html

   Minutes of March 11

   <noah> [9]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/11-minutes.html

      [9] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/11-minutes.html

   <DanC> PROPOSED: to approve 11 March, noting DKA's regrets

   DanA: I was not on the call on 3/11 but gave regrets

   RESOLUTION: Minutes of March 11 are approved. URL is above

   <DKA> Minutes of March 25 are posted.

   <DKA> [10]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/25-minutes.html

     [10] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/25-minutes.html

   Noah: We need to tell TPAC folks about TAG meeting
   ... suggest we say "TAG members will be on a best effort basis... we
   will meet Mon and Fri"

   <scribe> ACTION: Noah to verify with TAG TPAC plans and communicate
   to W3C teem due April 13 [recorded in
   [11]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action01]

     [11] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action01

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-423 - Verify with TAG TPAC plans and
   communicate to W3C teem due April 13 [on Noah Mendelsohn - due
   2010-04-08].

   <DanC> action-423 due 13 Apr

   <trackbot> ACTION-423 Verify with TAG TPAC plans and communicate to
   W3C teem due April 13 due date now 13 Apr

   <DanC> action-415: see
   [12]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/24-tagmem-minutes.html

     [12] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/24-tagmem-minutes.html

   <trackbot> ACTION-415 Edit ftf minutes day 1 (Wednesday 24 March)
   notes added

   <DanC> close action-415

   <trackbot> ACTION-415 Edit ftf minutes day 1 (Wednesday 24 March)
   closed

HTML 5 review: [$1\47]ISSUE-41 (LanguageVersioning-41): HTML5

   Noah: We don't have a shared tracking system with HTML folks

   We opened ACTION 407. Need to respond

   <masinter> action-407?

   <trackbot> ACTION-407 -- Henry S. Thompson to propose an update to
   DanC's prose from
   [13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0878.htm
   l to explicitly reference or encorporate the HTML history, similarly
   to the way 2854 does -- due 2010-04-13 -- OPEN

     [13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0878.html

   <trackbot> [14]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/407

     [14] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/407

   <DanC> looking at
   [15]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/26-minutes.html ...

     [15] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/26-minutes.html

   Noah: Maybe nothing to do here since Henry is not here

   <DanC> text/html registration is
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/26-minutes.html#item07

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/26-minutes.html#item07

   <masinter> i think there's a bigger architectural issue about MIME
   types, what they're for, how they're used on the Web

   LMM: I'm concerned that there is not a good understanding about MIME
   types
   ... there is a lot of confusion. This relates to a lot of open
   issues.

   <jar_> [17]http://www.w3.org/1999/09/specification.html

     [17] http://www.w3.org/1999/09/specification.html

   <DanC> issue-1?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-1 -- Should W3C WGs define their own media types?
   -- RAISED

   <trackbot> [18]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/1

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/1

   LMM: I think we should write a finding about MIME types

   Noah: I'm happy to entertain the proposal

   <jar_> masinter: A mime type doesn't license anyone to do anything

   Noah: but Paul wants feedback soon
   ... I suggest we tell Paul we are working on it but it will be a bit
   late

   <masinter> I think we should take up the bigger issue

   <DKA> +1 to your suggested approach, Noah.

   <masinter> I'd rather have correct feedback than bad feedback sooner

   <masinter> issue-1?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-1 -- Should W3C WGs define their own media types?
   -- RAISED

   <trackbot> [19]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/1

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/1

   <DanC> (on that page, it says "State: PENDING REVIEW")

   <DKA> [20]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime

     [20] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime

   DanC: We have a finding on MIME types from April 2004

   <DanC> "Internet Media Type registration, consistency of use"

   DanC: It says you should have a MIME type ... not let spec and type
   get out of sync

   <masinter> It doesn't say what MIME types mean, whether they should
   be sniffed, whether it's reasonable to write recommendation "The
   document FOOBAR-XML can be served as A or B"

   DanA: This finding reads to me like RTFM

   <masinter> it doesn't give guidelines on redefinition of MIME types,
   about change controllers

   DanA: I think Larry was suggesting something in the Web Arch

   <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime

   DanC: It will be yet more stuff to read ... It's all documented ...

   Noah: I'm sympathetic to writing findings

   <masinter> I'm proposing updating
   [22]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime, not writing a new
   finding.

     [22] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime

   <DanC> (I'd be happy to see masinter pull a rabbit out of a hat, so
   to speak.)

   <masinter> the RFCs on MIME types don't talk about MIME types in the
   web, for example, they focus on email

   Noah: there is a lot we have been discussing that existing findings
   don't address

   <masinter> don't mention use of MIME types in content-negotiation

   Noah: who can put some effort into it?

   <masinter> could address the text/html application/xhtml+xml issue

   <DanC> ("content negotiation" doesn't occur in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime . interesting.)

     [23] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime

   Noah: When you start a finding there is a chance the group will not
   approve it
   ... we need someone to step up

   LMM: I'm willing to work on it

   <DKA> I will be willing to help.

   <DanC> . ACTION Masinter: draft update to TAG mime type finding
   (with DanA) to address [KEYWORDS, please?]

   Noah: Due date f2f?

   LMM: I will start some discussions on www-tag

   <masinter> i will have an action to propose changes on www-tag in
   the next 3 days

   <masinter> and another action to prepare a proposed update to
   finding based on that discussion by F2F

   <noah> Larry, Dan wants keywords

   DanC: Need keyword to say what's wrong with the finding

   Noah: Need guidance on how to respond to PaulC

   <jar_> . ACTION Masinter: propose some changes/additions to
   0430-mime, due in 3 days

   Noah: we have ACTION-407, dates have slipped a bit

   <masinter> ACTION: Masinter to propose some changes/additions to
   0430-mime, due in 3 days [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action02]

     [24] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action02

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-424 - Propose some changes/additions to
   0430-mime, due in 3 days [on Larry Masinter - due 2010-04-08].

   <masinter> ACTION: Masinter to draft updated 0430-mine, with help
   from DanA, due by next TAG F2F, based on www-tag discussion
   [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action03]

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action03

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-425 - Draft updated 0430-mine, with help
   from DanA, due by next TAG F2F, based on www-tag discussion [on
   Larry Masinter - due 2010-04-08].

HTML WG [$1\47]ISSUE-81: "representation" instead of "resource"

   Noah: PaulC sent mail saying they had a concern with our planning
   esp. Issue 81
   ... I said it was closed

   DanC: It was pending review ... I thought it would be on f2f agenda

   Noah: Oops missed that

   <noah> action-389?

   <trackbot> ACTION-389 -- Larry Masinter to take Dan's proposal on
   resource/representation and turn it into a change proposal -- due
   2010-02-25 -- PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/389

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/389

   <Zakim> jar, you wanted to say "document"

   <masinter> (can't hear over noise here, will respond to IRC but not
   phone)

   JAR: I remember I exchanged mail w/DanC
   ... seems straightforward ... suggest HTML5 revert to language used
   by HTML4 --- replace "resource" with "document"

   Noah: What about representation?

   JAR: Not used in HTML4

   Noah: Someone should step up and say "here is a story we can tell
   HTML" otherwise we can say we have changed our mind and will not
   provide input

   DanC: It's editorial, I don't want to work on editorial stuff
   ... We are discussing resource and representation but no one seem
   inclined to work on it

   JAR: There are many occurrences of "resource" in the document

   <timbl> RT @aetxebeste: RT @openstreetmap: Announcing
   closedstreetmap.org [27]http://post.ly/X2pg

     [27] http://post.ly/X2pg

   TimBL: How many of those cannot be turned into "document"

   <timbl> sorry clipboard fail

   <timbl> [28]http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/Overview.html

     [28] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/Overview.html

   JAR: How strongly does Tim feel about this ... inconsistent use of
   resource
   ... inconsistent with other usage

   <timbl> curl [29]http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/Overview.html | grep -i
   resource | wc => 659 7123 65235

     [29] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/Overview.html

   Others feel "resource" means a sequence of bytes with a media type

   <jar_> danc: Ian gives evidence that 'resource' is already used in
   w3c documents to mean bytes (+ media type etc)

   <DanC> [[

   <DanC> Ian points out usage that suggests "a resource is a bag of
   bits"

   <DanC> in HTML 4, CSS, SVG etc.

   <DanC>
   [30]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/1132.htm
   l

     [30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/1132.html

   <DanC> ]]

   <DanC> --
   [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Dec/0070.html

     [31] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Dec/0070.html

   <timbl> "This specification defines an abstract language for
   describing documents and applications, and some APIs for interacting
   with in-memory representations of resources that use this language."

   <timbl> 1.6

   <timbl> "There are various concrete syntaxes that can be used to
   transmit resources that use this abstract language, two of which are
   defined in this specification."

   <noah> Ian's mail:
   [32]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/1132.htm
   l

     [32] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/1132.html

   Noah: I don't find his examples compelling

   JAR: Agrees

   <DanC> (rfc2616 is what? )

   <masinter> the term "resource" is ambiguous

   <masinter> so you can easily find documents that use it in lots of
   ways

   <DanC> (I think rfc2616 is replaced by
   [33]http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3986.txt )

     [33] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3986.txt

   JAR: If Tim is happy, I'm happy

   <masinter> can we really address editorial issues one-by-one

   <masinter>
   [34]http://masinter.blogspot.com/2010/03/resources-are-angels-urls-a
   re-pins.html

     [34] http://masinter.blogspot.com/2010/03/resources-are-angels-urls-are-pins.html

   <jar_> apparently.

   Noah: I find this as reasoning from the converse

   <masinter> the MIME type finding update could also talk about
   resources & representations?

   <masinter> or maybe it should be an update to webarch?

   Noah: argues from XML Schema where the wording is not great!

   DanC: It's an editorial matter

   <timbl> "Indeed. Nor do resources. The URL
   "[35]http://twitter.com/hixie" has as its

     [35] http://twitter.com/hixie

   <timbl> significance "use the HTTP protocol on the server with host
   name

   <timbl> 'twitter.com' on port 80 with path '/hixie'"; it doesn't
   have any more

   Noah: I think it's more than editorial because usage may be
   confusingly different

   <timbl> actual significance than that."

   <timbl> T

   <timbl> his is nt what web arch says, it is a diff philosophy

   <masinter> as chair of HTTP WG at the time, I can say
   authoritatively that 2616 was the result of a battle over functional
   behavior, and editorial issues were definitely second priority

   <jar_> Ian's significance claim not a falsifiable claim; irrelevant.

   LMM: I wonder about the value of taking it one word at a time
   editorially

   Noah: Dicussion of URI and URL discussion was fruitful
   ... What would TAG like to tell the HTML WG?

   Tim: Represenation is a messy word

   JAR: I suggest "document" as alternative to html5:resource

   <timbl> Trouble is, I like "document" as an alterntive for
   "resource" - not "representation".

   <timbl> How about "file"?

   <timbl> That is a set of bits

   <jar_> HTML4 uses "document"... that seems good... it reads well

   <timbl> "A URL is a string used to identify a resource".

   <timbl> " 2.5.1 is fine

   <DanC> I hear TimBL saying he likes "document" as a synonym for
   webarch:resource

   <timbl> No, I like "document" as a synonym for webarch:resource

   <timbl> webarch:InformationResource

   <timbl> for webarch:InformationResource

   <timbl> I like "document" as a synonym for
   webarch:InformationResource

   <timbl> Phew

   <noah> So, that's what Tim meant...

   <timbl> How about "file" as a set of bits

   <timbl> and representation as the combination of returned metadata
   and the file

   DKA: Asks about the state of play on the issue

   DanC: I sent comments to TAG not the editors

   DKA: Why not ask editors to put in explanotory note at the start of
   the document

   <timbl> I note [36]http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/Overview.html has
   scripts which prevent it from being used easily

     [36] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/Overview.html

   <timbl> [37]http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html

     [37] http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html

   <timbl> "A script on this page is busy"

   Noah: Do we really need to edit the source?

   <timbl> Currently, "resource" is used inconsisently within the spec.
   Therefore, it would have to be edited by a person,

   <DanC> the status section of the editor's draft notes
   [38]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/ and svn checkout
   [39]http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/

     [38] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/
     [39] http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/

   <DanC> (inconsistently? I haven't seen that. could you point out 2
   inconsistent uses, tim? that could)

   Tim: Yes
   ... sometimes it says a URI identifies a resource

   <DanC> [40]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/

     [40] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/

   Noah: They think we offered to do some drafting but we have not

   <timbl> ) --><tr><td> <code title="">abreve;</code> </td> <td>
   U+00103 </td> <td> <span>&#259;</span> </td> <tr><td> <code
   title="">ac;</code> </td> <td> U+0223E </td> <td>
   <span>&#8766;</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">acd;</code> </td>
   <td> U+0223F </td> <td> <span>&#8767;</span> </td> <tr><td> <code
   title="">acirc;</code> </td> <td> U+000E2 </td> <td>
   <span>&acirc;</span> </td> <tr class="impl"><td> <code
   title="">acirc</code> </td> <td> U+000E2 </td> <td> <span

   <timbl> title="">&acirc;</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with
   missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr class="impl"><td>
   <code title="">acirc</code> </td> <td> U+000E2 </td> <td>
   <span>&acirc;</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing
   semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr><td> <code
   title="">acute;</code> </td> <td> U+000B4 </td> <td>
   <span>&acute;</span> </td> <tr class="impl"><td> <code
   title="">acute</code> </td> <td> U+000B4 </td> <td> <

   <timbl> title="">&acute;</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with
   missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr class="impl"><td>
   <code title="">acute</code> </td> <td> U+000B4 </td> <td>
   <span>&acute;</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing
   semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr><td> <code
   title="">acy;</code> </td> <td> U+00430 </td> <td>
   <span>&#1072;</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">aelig;</code>
   </td> <td> U+000E6 </td> <td> <span>&aelig;</

   <timbl> </td> <tr class="impl"><td> <code title="">aelig</code>
   </td> <td> U+000E6 </td> <td> <span title="">&aelig;</span> </td>
   </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing semicolon for legacy support
   only) --><tr class="impl"><td> <code title="">aelig</code> </td>
   <td> U+000E6 </td> <td> <span>&aelig;</span> </td> </tr><!--
   (invalid entity with missing semicolon for legacy support only)
   --><tr><td> <code title="">af;</code> </td> <td> U+02061 </td> <td>
   <span>&#8289;</span

   <timbl> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">afr;</code> </td> <td> U+1D51E
   </td> <td> <span>&#32;&#32;</span> </td> <tr><td> <code
   title="">agrave;</code> </td> <td> U+000E0 </td> <td>
   <span>&agrave;</span> </td> <tr class="impl"><td> <code
   title="">agrave</code> </td> <td> U+000E0 </td> <td> <span
   title="">&agrave;</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with
   missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr class="impl"><td>
   <code title="">agrave</code> </td> <td> U+000E0 </t

   <timbl> <td> <span>&agrave;</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity
   with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr><td> <code
   title="">alefsym;</code> </td> <td> U+02135 </td> <td>
   <span>&alefsym;</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">aleph;</code>
   </td> <td> U+02135 </td> <td> <span>&alefsym;</span> </td> <tr><td>
   <code title="">alpha;</code> </td> <td> U+003B1 </td> <td>
   <span>&alpha;</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">amacr;</code>
   </td> <td> U+00101 </td> <td

   <timbl> <span>&#257;</span> </td> <tr><td> <code
   title="">amalg;</code> </td> <td> U+02A3F </td> <td>
   <span>&#10815;</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">amp;</code>
   </td> <td> U+00026 </td> <td> <span>&amp;</span> </td> <tr
   class="impl"><td> <code title="">amp</code> </td> <td> U+00026 </td>
   <td> <span title="">&amp;</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity
   with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr
   class="impl"><td> <code title="">amp</code> </td> <td> U+0002

   <timbl> </td> <td> <span>&amp;</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid
   entity with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr><td>
   <code title="">and;</code> </td> <td> U+02227 </td> <td>
   <span>&and;</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">andand;</code>
   </td> <td> U+02A55 </td> <td> <span>&#10837;</span> </td> <tr><td>
   <code title="">andd;</code> </td> <td> U+02A5C </td> <td>
   <span>&#10844;</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">andslope;</code>
   </td> <td> U+02A58 </td> <td>

   <timbl> <span>&#10840;</span> </td> <tr><td> <code
   title="">andv;</code> </td> <td> U+02A5A </td> <td>
   <span>&#10842;</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">ang;</code>
   </td> <td> U+02220 </td> <td> <span>&ang;</span> </td> <tr><td>
   <code title="">ange;</code> </td> <td> U+029A4 </td> <td>
   <span>&#10660;</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">angle;</code>
   </td> <td> U+02220 </td> <td> <span>&ang;</span> </td> <tr><td>
   <code title="">angmsd;</code> </td> <td> U+02221 </td> <

   <timbl> <span>&#8737;</span> </td> <tr><td> <code
   title="">angmsdaa;</code> </td> <td> U+029A8 </td> <td>
   <span>&#10664;</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">angmsdab;</code>
   </td> <td> U+029A9 </td> <td> <span>&#10665;</span> </td> <tr><td>
   <code title="">angmsdac;</code> </td> <td> U+029AA </td> <td>
   <span>&#10666;</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">angmsdad;</code>
   </td> <td> U+029AB </td> <td> <span>&#10667;</span> </td> <tr><td>
   <code title="">angmsdae;</code> </t

   <timbl> <td> U+029AC </td>

   <timbl> this is not an editable editor's draft.

   <timbl> Things like that do not made a draft editable.

   Noah: I'm happy to delegate the response to Paul to someone else

   <timbl> I would like the TAG to ask the HTML WG to change the
   document so that the same word "resource" is not used for different
   concepts.

   <DanC> I understand the position of the editor so that it's already
   not used for different concepts.

   Noah: We can make correction without having access to the source
   ... we can copy/paste from a browse window
   ... I will communicate with Paul informally

   ADJOURNED

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Masinter to draft updated 0430-mine, with help from
   DanA, due by next TAG F2F, based on www-tag discussion [recorded in
   [41]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action03]
   [NEW] ACTION: Masinter to propose some changes/additions to
   0430-mime, due in 3 days [recorded in
   [42]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action02]
   [NEW] ACTION: Noah to verify with TAG TPAC plans and communicate to
   W3C teem due April 13 [recorded in
   [43]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action01]

     [41] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action03
     [42] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action02
     [43] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action01

   [End of minutes]





-- 
All the best, Ashok
Received on Friday, 2 April 2010 16:47:38 UTC

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