- From: ashok malhotra <ashok.malhotra@oracle.com>
- Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:45:55 -0700
- To: "www-tag@w3.org" <www-tag@w3.org>
See http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes.html Or as text below [1]W3C [1] http://www.w3.org/ - DRAFT - TAG WEEKLY 01 Apr 2010 See also: [2]IRC log [2] http://www.w3.org/2010/04/01-tagmem-irc Attendees Present Noah Mendelsohn, Dan Connolly, Dan Appelquist, Larry Masinter, Ashok Malhotra, Jonathan Rees, Tim Berners-Lee Regrets John Kemp, Henry Thompson Chair Noah Mendelsohn Scribe Ashok Malhotra Contents * [3]Topics 1. [4]Convene 2. [5]HTML 5 review: [$1\47]ISSUE-41 (LanguageVersioning-41): HTML5 3. [6]HTML WG [$1\47]ISSUE-81: "representation" instead of "resource" * [7]Summary of Action Items _________________________________________________________ <scribe> scribenick: Ashok <scribe> scribe: Ashok_Malhotra Convene <DanC> RESOLVED: to cancel TAG weekly telcon 8 Apr <DanC> (resolved last week, I gather; just a reminder) Minutes of March 4 have been checked in by DanA <DKA> [8]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/04-minutes.html [8] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/04-minutes.html Minutes of March 11 <noah> [9]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/11-minutes.html [9] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/11-minutes.html <DanC> PROPOSED: to approve 11 March, noting DKA's regrets DanA: I was not on the call on 3/11 but gave regrets RESOLUTION: Minutes of March 11 are approved. URL is above <DKA> Minutes of March 25 are posted. <DKA> [10]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/25-minutes.html [10] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/25-minutes.html Noah: We need to tell TPAC folks about TAG meeting ... suggest we say "TAG members will be on a best effort basis... we will meet Mon and Fri" <scribe> ACTION: Noah to verify with TAG TPAC plans and communicate to W3C teem due April 13 [recorded in [11]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action01] [11] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-423 - Verify with TAG TPAC plans and communicate to W3C teem due April 13 [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2010-04-08]. <DanC> action-423 due 13 Apr <trackbot> ACTION-423 Verify with TAG TPAC plans and communicate to W3C teem due April 13 due date now 13 Apr <DanC> action-415: see [12]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/24-tagmem-minutes.html [12] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/24-tagmem-minutes.html <trackbot> ACTION-415 Edit ftf minutes day 1 (Wednesday 24 March) notes added <DanC> close action-415 <trackbot> ACTION-415 Edit ftf minutes day 1 (Wednesday 24 March) closed HTML 5 review: [$1\47]ISSUE-41 (LanguageVersioning-41): HTML5 Noah: We don't have a shared tracking system with HTML folks We opened ACTION 407. Need to respond <masinter> action-407? <trackbot> ACTION-407 -- Henry S. Thompson to propose an update to DanC's prose from [13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0878.htm l to explicitly reference or encorporate the HTML history, similarly to the way 2854 does -- due 2010-04-13 -- OPEN [13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Feb/0878.html <trackbot> [14]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/407 [14] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/407 <DanC> looking at [15]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/26-minutes.html ... [15] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/26-minutes.html Noah: Maybe nothing to do here since Henry is not here <DanC> text/html registration is [16]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/26-minutes.html#item07 [16] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/03/26-minutes.html#item07 <masinter> i think there's a bigger architectural issue about MIME types, what they're for, how they're used on the Web LMM: I'm concerned that there is not a good understanding about MIME types ... there is a lot of confusion. This relates to a lot of open issues. <jar_> [17]http://www.w3.org/1999/09/specification.html [17] http://www.w3.org/1999/09/specification.html <DanC> issue-1? <trackbot> ISSUE-1 -- Should W3C WGs define their own media types? -- RAISED <trackbot> [18]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/1 [18] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/1 LMM: I think we should write a finding about MIME types Noah: I'm happy to entertain the proposal <jar_> masinter: A mime type doesn't license anyone to do anything Noah: but Paul wants feedback soon ... I suggest we tell Paul we are working on it but it will be a bit late <masinter> I think we should take up the bigger issue <DKA> +1 to your suggested approach, Noah. <masinter> I'd rather have correct feedback than bad feedback sooner <masinter> issue-1? <trackbot> ISSUE-1 -- Should W3C WGs define their own media types? -- RAISED <trackbot> [19]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/1 [19] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/1 <DanC> (on that page, it says "State: PENDING REVIEW") <DKA> [20]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime [20] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime DanC: We have a finding on MIME types from April 2004 <DanC> "Internet Media Type registration, consistency of use" DanC: It says you should have a MIME type ... not let spec and type get out of sync <masinter> It doesn't say what MIME types mean, whether they should be sniffed, whether it's reasonable to write recommendation "The document FOOBAR-XML can be served as A or B" DanA: This finding reads to me like RTFM <masinter> it doesn't give guidelines on redefinition of MIME types, about change controllers DanA: I think Larry was suggesting something in the Web Arch <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note [21]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime [21] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime DanC: It will be yet more stuff to read ... It's all documented ... Noah: I'm sympathetic to writing findings <masinter> I'm proposing updating [22]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime, not writing a new finding. [22] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime <DanC> (I'd be happy to see masinter pull a rabbit out of a hat, so to speak.) <masinter> the RFCs on MIME types don't talk about MIME types in the web, for example, they focus on email Noah: there is a lot we have been discussing that existing findings don't address <masinter> don't mention use of MIME types in content-negotiation Noah: who can put some effort into it? <masinter> could address the text/html application/xhtml+xml issue <DanC> ("content negotiation" doesn't occur in [23]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime . interesting.) [23] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/0430-mime Noah: When you start a finding there is a chance the group will not approve it ... we need someone to step up LMM: I'm willing to work on it <DKA> I will be willing to help. <DanC> . ACTION Masinter: draft update to TAG mime type finding (with DanA) to address [KEYWORDS, please?] Noah: Due date f2f? LMM: I will start some discussions on www-tag <masinter> i will have an action to propose changes on www-tag in the next 3 days <masinter> and another action to prepare a proposed update to finding based on that discussion by F2F <noah> Larry, Dan wants keywords DanC: Need keyword to say what's wrong with the finding Noah: Need guidance on how to respond to PaulC <jar_> . ACTION Masinter: propose some changes/additions to 0430-mime, due in 3 days Noah: we have ACTION-407, dates have slipped a bit <masinter> ACTION: Masinter to propose some changes/additions to 0430-mime, due in 3 days [recorded in [24]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action02] [24] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-424 - Propose some changes/additions to 0430-mime, due in 3 days [on Larry Masinter - due 2010-04-08]. <masinter> ACTION: Masinter to draft updated 0430-mine, with help from DanA, due by next TAG F2F, based on www-tag discussion [recorded in [25]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action03] [25] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-425 - Draft updated 0430-mine, with help from DanA, due by next TAG F2F, based on www-tag discussion [on Larry Masinter - due 2010-04-08]. HTML WG [$1\47]ISSUE-81: "representation" instead of "resource" Noah: PaulC sent mail saying they had a concern with our planning esp. Issue 81 ... I said it was closed DanC: It was pending review ... I thought it would be on f2f agenda Noah: Oops missed that <noah> action-389? <trackbot> ACTION-389 -- Larry Masinter to take Dan's proposal on resource/representation and turn it into a change proposal -- due 2010-02-25 -- PENDINGREVIEW <trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/389 [26] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/389 <Zakim> jar, you wanted to say "document" <masinter> (can't hear over noise here, will respond to IRC but not phone) JAR: I remember I exchanged mail w/DanC ... seems straightforward ... suggest HTML5 revert to language used by HTML4 --- replace "resource" with "document" Noah: What about representation? JAR: Not used in HTML4 Noah: Someone should step up and say "here is a story we can tell HTML" otherwise we can say we have changed our mind and will not provide input DanC: It's editorial, I don't want to work on editorial stuff ... We are discussing resource and representation but no one seem inclined to work on it JAR: There are many occurrences of "resource" in the document <timbl> RT @aetxebeste: RT @openstreetmap: Announcing closedstreetmap.org [27]http://post.ly/X2pg [27] http://post.ly/X2pg TimBL: How many of those cannot be turned into "document" <timbl> sorry clipboard fail <timbl> [28]http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/Overview.html [28] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/Overview.html JAR: How strongly does Tim feel about this ... inconsistent use of resource ... inconsistent with other usage <timbl> curl [29]http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/Overview.html | grep -i resource | wc => 659 7123 65235 [29] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/Overview.html Others feel "resource" means a sequence of bytes with a media type <jar_> danc: Ian gives evidence that 'resource' is already used in w3c documents to mean bytes (+ media type etc) <DanC> [[ <DanC> Ian points out usage that suggests "a resource is a bag of bits" <DanC> in HTML 4, CSS, SVG etc. <DanC> [30]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/1132.htm l [30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/1132.html <DanC> ]] <DanC> -- [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Dec/0070.html [31] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Dec/0070.html <timbl> "This specification defines an abstract language for describing documents and applications, and some APIs for interacting with in-memory representations of resources that use this language." <timbl> 1.6 <timbl> "There are various concrete syntaxes that can be used to transmit resources that use this abstract language, two of which are defined in this specification." <noah> Ian's mail: [32]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/1132.htm l [32] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Sep/1132.html Noah: I don't find his examples compelling JAR: Agrees <DanC> (rfc2616 is what? ) <masinter> the term "resource" is ambiguous <masinter> so you can easily find documents that use it in lots of ways <DanC> (I think rfc2616 is replaced by [33]http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3986.txt ) [33] http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3986.txt JAR: If Tim is happy, I'm happy <masinter> can we really address editorial issues one-by-one <masinter> [34]http://masinter.blogspot.com/2010/03/resources-are-angels-urls-a re-pins.html [34] http://masinter.blogspot.com/2010/03/resources-are-angels-urls-are-pins.html <jar_> apparently. Noah: I find this as reasoning from the converse <masinter> the MIME type finding update could also talk about resources & representations? <masinter> or maybe it should be an update to webarch? Noah: argues from XML Schema where the wording is not great! DanC: It's an editorial matter <timbl> "Indeed. Nor do resources. The URL "[35]http://twitter.com/hixie" has as its [35] http://twitter.com/hixie <timbl> significance "use the HTTP protocol on the server with host name <timbl> 'twitter.com' on port 80 with path '/hixie'"; it doesn't have any more Noah: I think it's more than editorial because usage may be confusingly different <timbl> actual significance than that." <timbl> T <timbl> his is nt what web arch says, it is a diff philosophy <masinter> as chair of HTTP WG at the time, I can say authoritatively that 2616 was the result of a battle over functional behavior, and editorial issues were definitely second priority <jar_> Ian's significance claim not a falsifiable claim; irrelevant. LMM: I wonder about the value of taking it one word at a time editorially Noah: Dicussion of URI and URL discussion was fruitful ... What would TAG like to tell the HTML WG? Tim: Represenation is a messy word JAR: I suggest "document" as alternative to html5:resource <timbl> Trouble is, I like "document" as an alterntive for "resource" - not "representation". <timbl> How about "file"? <timbl> That is a set of bits <jar_> HTML4 uses "document"... that seems good... it reads well <timbl> "A URL is a string used to identify a resource". <timbl> " 2.5.1 is fine <DanC> I hear TimBL saying he likes "document" as a synonym for webarch:resource <timbl> No, I like "document" as a synonym for webarch:resource <timbl> webarch:InformationResource <timbl> for webarch:InformationResource <timbl> I like "document" as a synonym for webarch:InformationResource <timbl> Phew <noah> So, that's what Tim meant... <timbl> How about "file" as a set of bits <timbl> and representation as the combination of returned metadata and the file DKA: Asks about the state of play on the issue DanC: I sent comments to TAG not the editors DKA: Why not ask editors to put in explanotory note at the start of the document <timbl> I note [36]http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/Overview.html has scripts which prevent it from being used easily [36] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/Overview.html <timbl> [37]http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html [37] http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html <timbl> "A script on this page is busy" Noah: Do we really need to edit the source? <timbl> Currently, "resource" is used inconsisently within the spec. Therefore, it would have to be edited by a person, <DanC> the status section of the editor's draft notes [38]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/ and svn checkout [39]http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/ [38] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/ [39] http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/ <DanC> (inconsistently? I haven't seen that. could you point out 2 inconsistent uses, tim? that could) Tim: Yes ... sometimes it says a URI identifies a resource <DanC> [40]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/ [40] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/ Noah: They think we offered to do some drafting but we have not <timbl> ) --><tr><td> <code title="">abreve;</code> </td> <td> U+00103 </td> <td> <span>ă</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">ac;</code> </td> <td> U+0223E </td> <td> <span>∾</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">acd;</code> </td> <td> U+0223F </td> <td> <span>∿</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">acirc;</code> </td> <td> U+000E2 </td> <td> <span>â</span> </td> <tr class="impl"><td> <code title="">acirc</code> </td> <td> U+000E2 </td> <td> <span <timbl> title="">â</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr class="impl"><td> <code title="">acirc</code> </td> <td> U+000E2 </td> <td> <span>â</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr><td> <code title="">acute;</code> </td> <td> U+000B4 </td> <td> <span>´</span> </td> <tr class="impl"><td> <code title="">acute</code> </td> <td> U+000B4 </td> <td> < <timbl> title="">´</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr class="impl"><td> <code title="">acute</code> </td> <td> U+000B4 </td> <td> <span>´</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr><td> <code title="">acy;</code> </td> <td> U+00430 </td> <td> <span>а</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">aelig;</code> </td> <td> U+000E6 </td> <td> <span>æ</ <timbl> </td> <tr class="impl"><td> <code title="">aelig</code> </td> <td> U+000E6 </td> <td> <span title="">æ</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr class="impl"><td> <code title="">aelig</code> </td> <td> U+000E6 </td> <td> <span>æ</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr><td> <code title="">af;</code> </td> <td> U+02061 </td> <td> <span>⁡</span <timbl> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">afr;</code> </td> <td> U+1D51E </td> <td> <span>  </span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">agrave;</code> </td> <td> U+000E0 </td> <td> <span>à</span> </td> <tr class="impl"><td> <code title="">agrave</code> </td> <td> U+000E0 </td> <td> <span title="">à</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr class="impl"><td> <code title="">agrave</code> </td> <td> U+000E0 </t <timbl> <td> <span>à</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr><td> <code title="">alefsym;</code> </td> <td> U+02135 </td> <td> <span>ℵ</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">aleph;</code> </td> <td> U+02135 </td> <td> <span>ℵ</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">alpha;</code> </td> <td> U+003B1 </td> <td> <span>α</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">amacr;</code> </td> <td> U+00101 </td> <td <timbl> <span>ā</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">amalg;</code> </td> <td> U+02A3F </td> <td> <span>⨿</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">amp;</code> </td> <td> U+00026 </td> <td> <span>&</span> </td> <tr class="impl"><td> <code title="">amp</code> </td> <td> U+00026 </td> <td> <span title="">&</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr class="impl"><td> <code title="">amp</code> </td> <td> U+0002 <timbl> </td> <td> <span>&</span> </td> </tr><!-- (invalid entity with missing semicolon for legacy support only) --><tr><td> <code title="">and;</code> </td> <td> U+02227 </td> <td> <span>∧</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">andand;</code> </td> <td> U+02A55 </td> <td> <span>⩕</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">andd;</code> </td> <td> U+02A5C </td> <td> <span>⩜</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">andslope;</code> </td> <td> U+02A58 </td> <td> <timbl> <span>⩘</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">andv;</code> </td> <td> U+02A5A </td> <td> <span>⩚</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">ang;</code> </td> <td> U+02220 </td> <td> <span>∠</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">ange;</code> </td> <td> U+029A4 </td> <td> <span>⦤</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">angle;</code> </td> <td> U+02220 </td> <td> <span>∠</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">angmsd;</code> </td> <td> U+02221 </td> < <timbl> <span>∡</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">angmsdaa;</code> </td> <td> U+029A8 </td> <td> <span>⦨</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">angmsdab;</code> </td> <td> U+029A9 </td> <td> <span>⦩</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">angmsdac;</code> </td> <td> U+029AA </td> <td> <span>⦪</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">angmsdad;</code> </td> <td> U+029AB </td> <td> <span>⦫</span> </td> <tr><td> <code title="">angmsdae;</code> </t <timbl> <td> U+029AC </td> <timbl> this is not an editable editor's draft. <timbl> Things like that do not made a draft editable. Noah: I'm happy to delegate the response to Paul to someone else <timbl> I would like the TAG to ask the HTML WG to change the document so that the same word "resource" is not used for different concepts. <DanC> I understand the position of the editor so that it's already not used for different concepts. Noah: We can make correction without having access to the source ... we can copy/paste from a browse window ... I will communicate with Paul informally ADJOURNED Summary of Action Items [NEW] ACTION: Masinter to draft updated 0430-mine, with help from DanA, due by next TAG F2F, based on www-tag discussion [recorded in [41]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action03] [NEW] ACTION: Masinter to propose some changes/additions to 0430-mime, due in 3 days [recorded in [42]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action02] [NEW] ACTION: Noah to verify with TAG TPAC plans and communicate to W3C teem due April 13 [recorded in [43]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action01] [41] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action03 [42] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action02 [43] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2010/04/01-minutes#action01 [End of minutes] -- All the best, Ashok
Received on Friday, 2 April 2010 16:47:38 UTC