Minutes of Nov 19 TAG Telcon

Are available at http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/11/19-minutes.html
and as text below.


      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

                           TAG Weekly Telcon

19 Nov 2009


      [2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/11/19-agenda

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2009/11/19-tagmem-irc


          Jonathan Rees, Henry Thompson, Ashok Malhotra, Dan Connolly

          Noah Mendelsohn, John Kemp, TimBL, T. V. Raman

          Henry Thompson



     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Convene
         2. [6]HTML5
         3. [7]Progress on HTML5 Versioning
     * [8]Summary of Action Items

   <scribe> scribe: Ashok

   <scribe> scribenick: Ashok

   <noah> Lurking for awhile. No phone, will probable not be on IRC
   long. Please mark me "regrets", as previously noted. Thank you.


   HT: Noah traveling
   ... Next mtg Dec 3. Noah will Chair, Larry is up for scribing.

   Ashok: Regrets for Dec 3

   HT: Can we have a mtg with only 4 people, Jonathan asks

   <ht> Noah, proxy for admin tasks, please

   <ht> So we can do them

   <ht> [9]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/11/02-minutes.html

      [9] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/11/02-minutes.html

   <Zakim> jar, you wanted to ask what is quorum

   <jar> DC: Not cited by HTML 5, disputed.

   <jar> HT: Works for me.

   JR: 2 lines in minutes of Nov 12 that I did not understand. Need to
   understand the subject

   <jar> what are the subjects of these two sentence fragments?

   <noah> Sorry, just noticed. Henry, you have my proxy for admin.

   <jar> Appendix C of html 1.0 is not cited by html5

   <jar> ht meant: if html5 would take on updated Appendix C, that
   would be a good goal

   HT: If HTML WG would take on updating App C and make it as good as
   possible that would be great!

   <DanC> +1 approve minutes of 2 Nov

   HT: Can we agree to approve minutes of Nov 2

   <jar> +1

   No objection. Minutes approved.

   <ht> [10]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/11/06-minutes.html

     [10] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/11/06-minutes.html

   HT: Can we agree to approve minutes of Nov 6

   No objection. Minutes of Nov 6 approved.

   <ht> [11]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/11/12-minutes.html

     [11] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/11/12-minutes.html

   HT: Can we agree to approve minutes of Nov 12

   <DanC> (minutes 6 nov are missing a back-pointer to the agenda; I
   almost fixed that before this meeting, but didn't get a round to

   No objection. Minutes of Nov 12 approved.

   <jar> Nov 6 "removal of the Microdata section form HTML4" - that
   means HTML5, right?

   <DanC> yes,

   <noah> Usually, when minutes are approved, I quietly make a note to
   myself to remove the DRAFT indication. In this case, I'll be gone
   1.5 more weeks. Please either just do it, or if you prefer, assign
   me trivial actions.

   scribe: no change required

   <DanC> close ACTION-310

   <trackbot> ACTION-310 Check with Sam Ruby on ECMA/W3C activities at
   TPAC closed

   HT: We have 2 f2f meetings scheduled: Dec 8-10 and March 17-19

   <DanC> close ACTION-296

   <trackbot> ACTION-296 update ISSUE-62 and ISSUE-63 to reference each
   other closed


   <DanC> for indexing purposes:

   <DanC> IsSUE-33?

   <trackbot> ISSUE-33 -- Composability for user interface-oriented XML
   namespaces -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [12]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/33

     [12] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/33

   HT: Dan action on you to check HTML plans for SVG and MathML

   <DanC> my msg

     [13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Nov/0012.html

   HT: They just grandfathered the entire spec
   ... what abt overlaps

   DC: You have to use SVG element, so no ambiguity

   HT: What abt HTML within SVG?

   DC: Have not seen a design for that

   HT: What is said about namespace declarations? Allowed and ignored?

   <noah> Hmm, why do I think I asked someone about HTML and SVG and
   got some answer like: some user agents may support that. This is NOT
   reliable information, just a vague recollection.

   DC: Don't know

   HT: I will look into this
   ... There has been discussion abt XML namespaces in HTML mixed in
   with draconian XML error recovery


     [14] http://www.balisage.net/Proceedings/vol3/html/Quin01/BalisageVol3-Quin01.html

   HT: above is Liam's proposal
   ... extensibility has heated up again.

   <DanC> (could we stick with the MathML/SVG stuff for a bit, mr
   chair? i.e. the user interface aspects, not the namespace syntax

   HT: I have written up the media type defaulting story which we have
   talked abt for 2 years


     [15] http://www.w3.org/QA/2009/11/default_prefix_declaration.html

   HT: I don't think Liam's proposal has a chance whereas mine has a
   ... I'm concerened abt tactics rather than substance

   DC: Reminds that we have an issue with user interface
   ... mixed namespace user interface documents
   ... CDF WG is gone!

   <jar> [16]http://www.w3.org/2004/CDF/

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2004/CDF/

   DC: They are not active.
   ... HTML5 folks have a design on the table.

   HT: Does proposal say much abt semantics

   DC: Talks mainly abt parsing

   HT: Does not sound good

   DC: I pointed this out when I was chair

   <DanC> Noah, I don't see "not reliable" in your msg

   DC: I have made my peace with the proposal. Noah said he had not
   made peace with it but did not suggest what to do with it

   <DanC> "I still am among those who

   <ht> The semantics of SVG elements are defined by the SVG
   specification and other relevant specifications. [SVG]

   DC: OK, That's good

   <DanC> but nothing about event-bubbling and screen arbitration
   between HTML and SVG

   <ht> "When the SVG foreignObject element contains elements from the
   HTML namespace, such elements"

   DC: how does it get in the HTML namespace. This is not a complete
   ... There is some algorithm for parsing the whole thing and some
   elements end up in the HTML namespace

   HT: Lot of special casing

   DC: No attempt to do anything general

   HT: How do we make progress here?

   <DanC> I don't think "there's no architectural issue here"; I think
   there's an architectural issue here, but legacy constrains the
   solution space, and I'm OK with accepting these constraints, since,
   interestingly, the right namespaces do end up in the DOM

   HT: asks JR

   JR: I would have to look thru the doc and do text searches

   HT: What would you need to know?

   <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note Noah's reply re SVG and MathML and
   to note that the "incorporated wholesale" is the way the (UI)
   software is, to date, developed too; no other designs

   HT: Asks abt integration of HTML with SVG and MathML

   DanC: Incorpparte wholesale is what people do

   JR: It's setting up a separate social and technical process for
   extensibility outside of web arch
   ... we are not talking about a general-purpose design here

   HT: Don't see a way to get a conclusion to this part of the

   DanC: Noah and Tim are not here ... leave my action as "Pending

Progress on HTML5 Versioning

   <ht> [17]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/4

     [17] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/4

   HT: HTML issue 4 has been open for 2 years
   ... in Feb Larry took an action and made a proposal

   <DanC> last call for proposals of 26 Oct, due 3 Dec:

     [18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Oct/0941.html

   DanC: There is a proposal in the spec ... no version identifiers

   <noah> Am I remembering right that the TAG decided not to actively
   pursue Larry's proposal? Of course, we could pick it up now, or I
   may be misremembering.

   <DanC> I think we didn't decide. (different from deciding not)

   <ht> <!DOCTYPE HTML SYSTEM "about:legacy-compat">

   <ht> Larry made an explicit proposal?

   <DanC> yeah... did larry make a proposal re. HTML version

   JR: I have not been able to convince myself that what they are doing
   is wrong
   ... I want to check

   <noah> Don't want to push this hard, but I thought we decided not to
   schedule further discussion for the (then) forseeable future. I have
   no problem picking it up again if there's new info or if TAG members
   are now interested.

   <noah> Would have to check past minutes, and am not in a position to
   do that from here.

   <ht> I put this on the agenda because TV and Larry had relevant
   actions due for today

   <ht> Unfortunately, neither of them are here, so we have to give up.
   . .

   <noah> OK

   <DanC> (the actions are due today as a matter of chair's perogative
   to edit the tracker; they were do a while ago, when the action
   owners last touched them.)

   HT: With some regrets ... some support for version identifiers ...
   but we need a proposal

   DanC: Manu's proposal included a version attribute

   HT: I thought that was still open for discussion

   DC: I think it was published

   HT: It is issue 76?

   <DanC> [19]http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-rdfa-in-html-20091015/

     [19] http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-rdfa-in-html-20091015/

   <DanC> I don't see @version in there.

   <DanC> I saw (discussion of?) some earlier draft with html/@version

   <jar> HTML+RDFa "There should be a version attribute on the html

   <jar> URI for issue 76 please?

   DanC: Mike Smith tells me Manu moved the version att somewhere else

   <ht> [20]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/76

     [20] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/76

   HT: I don't hear anyone stepping up to make a proposal.
   ... not happy abt this
   ... we we probably raise it again when they want to go to CR

   <noah> Dropping off for awhile again...sorry. If I'm really in the
   critical path for anything, please have someone call or SMS my cell
   next 30 mins. Thanks, and thanks to HT for chairing!

   <jar> ADJOURNED

   <DanC> action-336?

   <trackbot> ACTION-336 -- Ashok Malhotra to prep Metadata
   Architecture for Dec f2f -- due 2009-11-19 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [21]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/336

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/336

   <DanC> action-282?

   <trackbot> ACTION-282 -- Jonathan Rees to draft a finding on
   metadata architecture. -- due 2009-12-01 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [22]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/282

     [22] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/282

   <DanC> action-278?

   <trackbot> ACTION-278 -- Jonathan Rees to draft changes to 2.7 of
   Metadata in URIs to cover the "Google Calendar" case -- due
   2009-10-15 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [23]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/278

     [23] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/278

   <DanC> action-278 due 10 Dec

   <trackbot> ACTION-278 Draft changes to 2.7 of Metadata in URIs to
   cover the "Google Calendar" case due date now 10 Dec

   <DanC> action-337?

   <trackbot> ACTION-337 -- Larry Masinter to frame the F2F agenda and
   preparation on metadata formats/representations -- due 2009-11-19 --

   <trackbot> [24]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/337

     [24] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/337

   <DanC> [25]http://www.w3.org/2009/11/19-tagmem-irc.txt

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2009/11/19-tagmem-irc.txt

   <DanC> close action-299

   <trackbot> ACTION-299 Notify the TAG when the HTML WG gets closer to
   closing issue-4 html-versioning closed

   <DanC> action-283 due 10 Dec

   <trackbot> ACTION-283 Update document on version identifiers w.r.t.
   Cambridge June discussion due date now 10 Dec

   <DanC> action-318 due 20 Nov

   <trackbot> ACTION-318 Send note to Device APIs and Policy (DAP)
   Working Group on behalf of the TAG due date now 20 Nov

   <DanC> action-282: see Ashok's 13 Nov msg

     [26] http://www.w3.org/mid/4AFD629C.3090609@oracle.com

   <trackbot> ACTION-282 Draft a finding on metadata architecture.
   notes added

   <DanC> action-336 due 13 Nov

   <trackbot> ACTION-336 Prep Metadata Architecture for Dec f2f due
   date now 13 Nov

   <DanC> action-116 due 10 Dec

   <trackbot> ACTION-116 Align the tabulator internal vocabulary with
   the vocabulary in the rules
   [27]http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswDboothsRules, getting changes to
   either as needed. due date now 10 Dec

     [27] http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswDboothsRules

   <DanC> ACTION-281: let's take a look at this when we have jar's
   draft (action-282)

   <trackbot> ACTION-281 Keep an eye on progress of link header draft,
   report to TAG, warn us of problems (ISSUE-62) notes added

   <DanC> action-281 due 1 Dec

   <trackbot> ACTION-281 Keep an eye on progress of link header draft,
   report to TAG, warn us of problems (ISSUE-62) due date now 1 Dec

   <DanC> action-337 due 20 Nov

   <trackbot> ACTION-337 frame the F2F agenda and preparation on
   metadata formats/representations due date now 20 Nov

   <DanC> ACTION-306 due 20 Nov

   <trackbot> ACTION-306 Work with Raman, LM, JK to update Web
   APplication architecture outline based on discussions at TAG
   meetings due date now 20 Nov

   <DanC> ACTION-337 due 24 Nov

   <trackbot> ACTION-337 frame the F2F agenda and preparation on
   metadata formats/representations due date now 24 Nov

   <DanC> action-330 get somebody to talk about metadata usage e.g.

   <DanC> action-330: get somebody to talk about metadata usage e.g.

   <trackbot> ACTION-330 Prepare Dec f2f agenda in collaboration with
   Noah etc. notes added

   <DanC> ACTION-304: kinda withdrawn in favor of HT's action

   <trackbot> ACTION-304 Write up issue around normative references to
   particular versions of specs notes added

   <DanC> close ACTION-231

   <trackbot> ACTION-231 Draft replacement for \"how to use conneg\"
   stuff in HTTP spec closed

   <DanC> action-334 due next week

   <trackbot> ACTION-334 Start an email thread regarding the treatment
   of pre-HTML5 versions in the media type registration text of HTML5
   due date now next week

   <DanC> action-309 due next week

   <trackbot> ACTION-309 Henry to bring back proposed TAG pushback on
   sniffing and HTTP bis draft
   -httpbis/latest/p3-payload.html, or his recommendation that we leave
   it alone due date now next week

     [28] http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/export/663/draft-ietf-httpbis/latest/p3-payload.html

   <DanC> ACTION-163: I agree with ht's proposal in the 19 Nov agenda
   that he take this on

   <trackbot> ACTION-163 Coordinate with Ted to build a sample catalog
   notes added

   <DanC> ACTION-163: I=Dan that is

   <trackbot> ACTION-163 Coordinate with Ted to build a sample catalog
   notes added

Summary of Action Items

   [End of minutes]

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All the best, Ashok

Received on Sunday, 22 November 2009 23:07:01 UTC