Re: broken links in W3C documents and recommendations

On Feb 19, 2009, at 11:49 AM, Larry Masinter wrote:

> Pat, I think you might have misunderstood.
>
> The domain “tools.ietf.org” hosts trials of experimental services. www.ietf.org 
> , www.rfc-editor.org and other sites are operational sites. It’s  
> reasonable to allow the community to try services and comment on  
> their viability before committing to their permanent deployment.
>
> It’s unreasonable to make permanent links to experimental services.

I disagree. At the very least, the link should terminate in a document  
which tells you that something used to be there, but isn't any longer.  
It is like putting up a historical marker to tell people where some  
important event took place. Obviously this is too much to ask of  
everyone on the planet, but the IETF are in a special position.

But lets not start an argument about this, I was really only wanting  
to suggest a possible way to apply leverage to an organization that  
doesn't want to play ball nicely when using the Web.

Pat


>
> The fact that there are some experimental services (labeled by the  
> group experimenting with them, the volunteer ‘Tools’ group)  
> shouldn’t affect your expectations for permanent links to  
> operational services.
>
> Larry
>
>
>
>
> From: www-tag-request@w3.org [mailto:www-tag-request@w3.org] On  
> Behalf Of Pat Hayes
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 9:16 AM
> To: Larry Masinter
> Cc: Mark Baker; Julian Reschke; noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com; Dan  
> Connolly; Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress; www-tag@w3.org
> Subject: Re: broken links in W3C documents and recommendations
>
>
> On Feb 12, 2009, at 5:14 PM, Larry Masinter wrote:
>
>
>
> tools.ietf.org web site is run by the IETF Tools team. See http://tools.ietf.org/about 
> .
> (FWIW I was a member of the IETF Tools team for a while.)
>
> "The purpose of the TOOLS team is to provide IETF feedback and  
> guidance during the development of software tools to support various  
> parts of IETF activities."
>
> "The team may also develop prototypes of tools on servers separate  
> from the Secretariat servers. The team will however not be  
> responsible for management and maintenance of such servers."
>
> The home page notes: "Tools hosted by the secretariat are listed at http://www.ietf.org/tools 
> "
>
>
> Conclusion:
>
> Do not treat links to tools.ietf.org as permanent links.
>
> Then the only reasonable attitude to take would be to refuse to link  
> to them at all, since the Web is now such that links may well  
> outlast the things they link to, and there is nothing anyone can or  
> should do to stop this happening. I doubt if this is what the IETF  
> intended, however. Maybe if this policy, of refusing to create ANY  
> links or references to ANYTHING published by IETF Tools, were widely  
> publicised and actually adopted, IETF might re-think its  
> antediluvian policies and smell the Web coffee.
>
> Pat Hayes
>
>
>
>
> Larry
> -- 
> http://larry.masinter.net
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: www-tag-request@w3.org [mailto:www-tag-request@w3.org] On  
> Behalf Of Mark Baker
> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:34 AM
> To: Julian Reschke
> Cc: noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com; Dan Connolly; Larry Masinter; Ray  
> Denenberg, Library of Congress; www-tag@w3.org
> Subject: Re: broken links in W3C documents and recommendations
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de 
> > wrote:
>
>
> noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com wrote:
>
> ...
> I'm sympathetic to the notion that citations to IDs should be as  
> "work in
> progress".  I must say I don't find this an even slightly compelling  
> excuse
> as to why the content should disappear when the draft becomes  
> obsolete.  As
> a member of the community who has been repeatedly frustrated ...
>
> I probably should have mentioned that I also think removing the  
> content is
> the right thing.
>
> Thomas R. already pointed out that tools.ietf.org has historic  
> drafts as
> well, so my recommendation would be just to link there.
>
> FYI, tools.ietf.org also provides "latest" links, e.g.;
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-eastlake-cturi
>
> Mark.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> IHMC                                     (850)434 8903 or (650)494  
> 3973
> 40 South Alcaniz St.           (850)202 4416   office
> Pensacola                            (850)202 4440   fax
> FL 32502                              (850)291 0667   mobile
> phayesAT-SIGNihmc.us       http://www.ihmc.us/users/phayes
>
>
>
>

------------------------------------------------------------
IHMC                                     (850)434 8903 or (650)494 3973
40 South Alcaniz St.           (850)202 4416   office
Pensacola                            (850)202 4440   fax
FL 32502                              (850)291 0667   mobile
phayesAT-SIGNihmc.us       http://www.ihmc.us/users/phayes