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Re: TAG telcon of 2009-04-09: Draft minutes

From: <noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:00:54 -0400
To: Jonathan Rees <jar@creativecommons.org>
Cc: "www-tag@w3.org WG" <www-tag@w3.org>, www-tag-request@w3.org
Message-ID: <OF53410950.D6DB4E13-ON85257597.006DA7B2-85257597.006DC276@lotus.com>
Jonathan Rees wrote:

> [TAG telcon of 2009-04-09: Draft minutes]  Now available:  http:
> //www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/04/09-minutes.html

Thank you Jonathan.  For the benefit of those who prefer searchable text 
in email, a text form rendering of these draft minutes is attached.  Thank 


Noah Mendelsohn 
IBM Corporation
One Rogers Street
Cambridge, MA 02142


      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                               - DRAFT -

                              TAG Weekly

09 Apr 2009

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-tagmem-irc


          Larry_Masinter, Tim_Berners-Lee, John_Kemp, Noah_Mendelsohn,
          Jonathan_Rees, Ashok_Malhotra


          Noah Mendelsohn

          Jonathan Rees


     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]Convene
         2. [5]Approval of Minutes from previous telcons and meetings
         3. [6]Administrative items (Brief)
         4. [7]Web Services Resource Access (brief)
         5. [8]XMLVersioning-41 (ISSUE-41)
         6. [9]contentTypeOverride-24 (ISSUE-24)
         7. [10]HTML
         8. [11]Actions Pending Review
         9. [12]Overdue Action Items
     * [13]Summary of Action Items

   <scribe> Scribenick: jar

   <scribe> Scribe: Jonathan Rees


   jar: [...] indicate scribe's editorial notes


   regrets Henry, Raman

   future regrets - April 16 - John, Raman

   noah: propose to cancel 4/23

   <johnk> trackbot-ng, start telcom

   <trackbot> Sorry, johnk, I don't understand 'trackbot-ng, start
   telcom'. Please refer to [14]http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc
   for help

     [14] http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc

   RESOLVED Telecon of 2009-04-23 is canceled

   <johnk> trackbot-ng, start telcon

   <trackbot> Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference

   <trackbot> Date: 09 April 2009

Approval of Minutes from previous telcons and meetings

   RESOLUTION: Approve minutes of 26 March

     [15] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/03/26-minutes

Administrative items (Brief)

   noah: Agenda review. Propose to look at pending/due action items at
   end of call
   ... POWDER reviews due on the 27th
   ... Dan interested in working this up for next week
   ... Web app state WD - note has been sent to director for his

   timbl: trying to figure out whether it is domain lead or director
   who's responsible

   noah: Let's not get stuck on this [timbl & noah will figure it out]
   ... Priorities discussion - Tim has contributed to it on email -
   please follow up
   ... F2F reminders. 23-25 June, 22-24 Sept, both at MIT.
   ... hearing no objections, this is confirmed.

   <timbl> The marlowe is slightly further away from MIT and from the
   river thanthe sonesta

Web Services Resource Access (brief)

   noah: Want to wind this up
   ... Bob Freund wants us to give a heads-up ASAP if there will be an
   TAG issues re WS-RA
   ... We saw in early drafts of WS addressing the use of XML elements
   to identify things, instead of URIs
   ... Naming things in this way is counter to AWWW
   ... Apparently TAG's note on the subject has made little difference

   masinter: I wouldn't expect a group already moving forward with an
   arch we don't like to change directions
   ... The purpose of the warning note would only be a signpost for
   other efforts

   noah: The question is what to do

   <timbl> I think we let this go for the reasons LArry mentions among
   others .. we have said our peice

   ashok: ? We might want them to spell out what would happen if one
   did an HTTP GET on the URI in the endpoint reference ? ... it could
   lead to useful stuff

   johnk: If it's not too much effort to draft a note, couldn't we
   choose to raise it again?

   <Zakim> johnk, you wanted to ask whether the effort to draft a note
   is small enough that we should do it anyway?

   noah: Hard to get general agreement on such a note
   ... and there are two points, 1. How endpoints are named, 2.
   Duplication of HTTP

   masinter: More interested in how TAG deals with things like this in
   general, not necessarily this particular case
   ... We shouldn't hold up webarch as a reason
   ... Better to instead say why such and such is not a good idea

   <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to say yes, both those issues, but too big
   a difference i mentality for more communication to be useful. and to
   say yes, both those issues, but too big a

   masinter: It's appropriate for TAG to have authority to make
   statements, even when they're at variance with other group...

   timbl: On both issues, the problem is competition with URIs and
   HTTP. But no use spending much more time on this issue

   <Ashok> +1 to what Tim said

   noah: Any specific different proposal for something to do?

   <masinter> "The W3C Technical Architecture Group is disturbed by the
   fact that this recommendation defines mechnaisms that compete in
   some way with URIs and HTTP, by reimplementing other mechanisms."

   <masinter> "This design pattern should not be repeated."

   ashok: I recommend [that we ask them to spell out what would happen
   if one did an HTTP GET on the URI in the endpoint reference]

   <masinter> just thinking about IAB's/IESG's ability to add notes to
   WG texts, even if they don't agree

   <masinter> even if the IETF working group don't agree

   timbl: I see no marginal gain to any effort of this sort

   <masinter> I'm thinking more about 'how TAG works' rather than this
   particular effort

   <timbl> If there were a small change t the document which would fix
   it then we could spend effort on this, but we aren't we are saying
   they whole project is a bad idea compared to web arch.

   masinter: Interested in seeing that this kind of note-on-publication
   is something the TAG can do [procedurally]

   johnk: It's not about a competing architecture, but rather how it
   intersects web architecture [what GET does]

   noah: Having a competitor to HTTP/URI is very dissonant to web. But
   we've said this many times.

   timbl: Asking about GET is a red herring. People don't do GETs on
   service endpoints... But a different question is recommending that
   GET return interesting information, but that's not the issue on the

   <johnk> I'm convinced enough by Tim's argument...

   noah: Informal preference poll
   ... speak up if you prefer to send a note as ashok proposed


   <scribe> ACTION: Noah to write to Bob stating that there will
   probably not be any concerns from TAG [recorded in

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-tagmem-irc

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-256 - Write to Bob Freund, WS-RA WG chair,
   stating that there will probably not be any concerns from TAG [on
   Noah Mendelsohn - due 2009-04-16].

XMLVersioning-41 (ISSUE-41)

   noah: What should TAG be doing regarding language versioning?
   ... Look for Larry's email response to Noah's summarizing email on
   the subject
   ... The arch doc gives some advice on version identifiers (use
   them), but we got nervous. Story is unresolved
   ... Anything to help the HTML community? Any revisions desired to
   arch doc? These are separate questions

   masinter: These things are related. HTML is a use case that can help
   drive work on versioning [in arch doc or elsewhere]
   ... If no id, then no versioning. Id tells you what extensions are
   being used and which aren't
   ... We were looking at the issues in the abstract. Specific cases
   are valuable, e.g. HTML4/HTML5.
   ... HTML5 has come to an interesting policy
   ... interesting to look at kinds of extensions and how they're
   ... Willing to work on this

   timbl: A really good idea to write this up. Good to tell the story,
   hold off on drawing conclusions.
   ... I don't know that this can be separated from the philosophy that
   every browser can show every document, but ...

   <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to ashok red herring and to

   johnk: Specific examples good. Volunteer to help Larry. Agree that
   current discussion in AWWW is vaguer than it could be. Would be good
   to make advice more specific based on examples

   noah: Time to assign people... the two volunteers are new to the
   TAG's work on this subject
   ... To the extent HTML5 signals an extensibility architecture - can
   we write that down?

   masinter: Looking at process - the HTML5 WG is trying to close issue
   of versioning - can we say something in the next 6 weeks? Even if
   not very strong? Timeliness is important.

   noah: I would leave decisions like that up to the volunteers

   masinter: Happy to work with others [John/Jonathan] so we can have a
   good discussion next week

   <johnk> I have no time in the next week

   noah: Larry/Jonathan/John take a week to move it forward, we'll take
   it up then

   masinter: I'm supposed to report back to HTML WG on whether the TAG
   will have anything to say about this...

   noah: Meeting of 23rd is being UN-cancelled, but Noah not available
   to plan the agenda
   ... Perhaps we can just do versioning then


   <trackbot> ACTION-241 -- Larry Masinter to review TAG versioning
   situation and report back to TAG and HTML -- due 2009-04-09 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [17]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/241

     [17] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/241

   noah: Closing

   close ACTION-241

   <trackbot> ACTION-241 Review TAG versioning situation and report
   back to TAG and HTML closed

   close ACTION-229

   <trackbot> ACTION-229 Noah to respond to John Kemp proposal of Feb
   17 on versioning closed

   close ACTION-183

   <trackbot> ACTION-183 Incorporate formalism into versioning
   compatibility strategies closed

   noah: John, re blog posting on versioning identifiers?

   johnk: Is this work part of Larry's action now?

   noah: Yes, but not directly... we should land in a consistent place

   <masinter> My proposal was to use the HTML example to lead the
   general discussion

   noah: Worried that having two active threads on versioning will be
   ... Let's let the arch doc versioning problem sit for a while
   [pending other work]

contentTypeOverride-24 (ISSUE-24)

   noah: Dan was going to lead us through this. He's not here.

   masinter: The issue has been split off and moved to IETF. e.g. 10
   messages on content sniffing this morning
   ... I sent something about this to www-tag


     [18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Apr/0020.html

   masinter: I summarized what I thought the nature of the argument is.
   How extensibility fails, how systems evolve
   ... I'm encouraging liaison at an architectural level. Revisit in
   6-8 weeks

   <scribe> ACTION: Noah to schedule TAG to revisit progress in
   IETF/HTML liaison on content sniffing (invite Mark Not or Lisa D?)
   recorded in [19]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-tagmem-irc]

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-tagmem-irc

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-257 - Schedule TAG to revisit progress in
   IETF/HTML liaison on content sniffing (invite Mark Not or Lisa D?)
   [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2009-05-15].

   <johnk> here's a link to the last message in the thread on that
   subject from HTTP WG -


   close ACTION-233

   <trackbot> ACTION-233 Report back from IETF/HTML liason meeting in
   March regarding MIME type override closed

   noah: re ACTION-236, frag ids are being used for app state, apps are
   synthesizing documents...


   Defer until Dan can participate.

Actions Pending Review


     [21] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/pendingreview

   close 240

   close ACTION-240

   <trackbot> ACTION-240 Read thread on RDFa, CURIEs and profile and

     [22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009Feb/0295.html

   close ACTION-245

   <trackbot> ACTION-245 Noah to respond to TPAC survey saying TAG will
   meet Monday and Friday (half days) closed

   close ACTION-248

   <trackbot> ACTION-248 Prepare a new draft of
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/hash-in-url-20080320.html for
   review by the group closed

     [23] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/hash-in-url-20080320.html

   (It was clear that Raman had produced his draft.)

   close ACTION-251

   <trackbot> ACTION-251 Assemble the Mar 2009 f2f minutes from the
   now-complete 3 daily records closed

   close ACTION-252

   <trackbot> ACTION-252 Noah to schedule discussion of Autumn TAG F2F
   - see minutes of 26 March 2009 closed

   ACTION-253 needs to stay open. Postpone to next week 4/16


   <trackbot> ACTION-255 -- John Kemp to contact Sam to ask (a) how can
   the TAG be helpful (b) offer set up phone call involving Sam & 1 or
   2 others -- due 2009-04-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW

   <trackbot> [24]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/255

     [24] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/255

Overdue Action Items

   <noah> [25]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue

   noah: keep open; push out.


   <trackbot> ACTION-24 -- Tim Berners-Lee to clarify
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2003/04/iri , perhaps by using N3 -- due
   2009-03-03 -- OPEN

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2003/04/iri

   <trackbot> [27]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/24

     [27] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/24

   postpone to just before June F2F


   <trackbot> ACTION-116 -- Tim Berners-Lee to align the tabulator
   internal vocabulary with the vocabulary in the rules
   [28]http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswDboothsRules, getting changes to
   either as needed. -- due 2009-04-04 -- OPEN

     [28] http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswDboothsRules

   <trackbot> [29]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/116

     [29] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/116

   TimBL: That, I'm working on. Happy to keep being reminded every


   <trackbot> ACTION-201 -- Jonathan Rees to report on status of AWWSW
   discussions -- due 2009-03-30 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [30]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/201

     [30] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/201

   jar: Probably not very good use of TAG time right now
   ... Scheduling thing
   ... JAR will remind Noah to schedule this

   noah: How about May 5.


   <trackbot> ACTION-251 -- Noah Mendelsohn to assemble the Mar 2009
   f2f minutes from the now-complete 3 daily records -- due 2009-04-02
   -- CLOSED

   <trackbot> [31]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/251

     [31] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/251

   masinter: Not done. But it still makes sense to do it.
   ... How about 2 weeks.


Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Noah to schedule TAG to revisit progress in IETF/HTML
   liaison on content sniffing (invite Mark Not or Lisa D?) [recorded
   in [32]http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-tagmem-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: Noah to write to Bob stating that there will probably
   not be any concerns from TAG [recorded in

     [32] http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-tagmem-irc
     [33] http://www.w3.org/2009/04/09-tagmem-irc

   [End of minutes]

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