- From: Williams, Stuart (HP Labs, Bristol) <skw@hp.com>
- Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 10:07:47 -0000
- To: <www-tag@w3.org>
I've produced draft minutes of our meeting of 13th December 2004 at [1]
by passing the raw irc log [2] through David Booth's script. For
convenience a text version is included below.
Thanks to Noah for scribing.
Best regards
Stuart
--
[1] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/12/13-tag-summary.html
[2] http:/www.w3.org/2004/12/13-tagemem-irc
TAG Weekly Telcon 13th December 2004
13 Dec 2004
[2]Agenda
[2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/12/13-tag
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2004/12/13-tagmem-irc
Attendees
Present
Noah, Norm, Stuart, Dan, Roy, Tim
Regrets
Chris, Lilley
Chair
Stuart
Scribe
noah
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Administrivia
2. [6]Tech Plenary
3. [7]WebArch Publication Status
4. [8]Issues and Findings
* [9]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________________
<scribe> scribe: noah
<scribe> scribenick: Noah
Administrivia
<DanC> that's all 8 of us
SW: We will meet next week, Dec. 20th
Regrets for Dec 20: Chris
Scribe for Dec. 20: Dan
Minutes for Dec: 6th accepted without dissent
([10]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2004Dec/att-0009/tag-
telcon-
[10]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2004Dec/att-0009/tag-telcon-
20041206.html)
Try that again, the accepted minutes are at:
[11]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2004Dec/att-0009/tag-t
elcon-20041206.html
[11]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2004Dec/att-0009/tag-telcon-
20041206.html
(sorry, that first one was a cut/paste error)
Agreement to accept minutes of F2F of Nov 29th & 30th:
([12]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/11/29-30-tag.html)
[12] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/11/29-30-tag.html
Tech Plenary
Steve suggests that there may be a panel or working session on
Versioning at the tech plenary.
Stuart will talk to David Ezell tomorrow.
WebArch Publication Status
<DanC> 9 Dec draft
[13]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/#id-resources
[13] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/#id-resources
<DanC> 9 Dec draft
[14]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/
[14] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/
Dan gives update on recent work on arch doc. See links immediately
above.
<DanC>
[15]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/diff-from-pr.txt
[15]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/diff-from-pr.txt
And diff link above.
<DanC>
[16]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/diff-from-pr.txt
[16]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/diff-from-pr.txt
Discussing the diffs.
First comment is in response to comments from University of Edinburgh
([17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004O
ctDec/0171.html)
[17]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0
171.html
I'm going to try and paste diffs..let's see if they come over OK.
This document is an example of an information resource. It consists
of
words and punctuation symbols and graphics and other artifacts that
can be encoded, with varying degrees of fidelity, into a sequence of
bits. There is nothing about the essential information content of
this
- document that cannot in principle be transfered in a
representation.
+ document that cannot in principle be transfered in a message. In
the
+ case of this document, the message payload is the representation of
+ this document.
Argh...getting behind...we are working through the diff-from-pr file.
I will note any substantive discussion.
Dan reports "the director" is OK with all these, but has asked us as
TAG to consider Nokia's comment
([18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004O
ctDec/0170.html)
[18]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0
170.html
<DanC>
[19]http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/PR-webarch-20041105/#id-resources
[19] http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/PR-webarch-20041105/#id-resources
We are discussing Nokia comment #3, regarding namespaces.
Nokia's comment was:
3. Section 4.5.3. XML Namespaces, third paragraph
Current Text:
"... If namespace URIs that end with a punctuation or other non-Name
character are chosen,
then simple concatenation of the namespace URI and the local
name creates a URI for a secondary resource (the identified
term). This technique is used for many [RDFXML] namespaces."
Replacement Text:
"... Simple concatenation of the namespace URI and the local
name creates a URI for the identified term. This technique is
<Norm>
[20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004Oc
tDec/0170.html
[20]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0
170.html
used for [RDFXML] namespaces."
<DanC> note NM's suggestion [[
<DanC> Replacement Text:
<DanC> "... Simple concatenation of the namespace URI and the local
<DanC> name creates a URI for the identified term. This technique is
<DanC> used for [RDFXML] namespaces."
<DanC> ]]
<DanC> oops; that was not NM's suggestion
Right, that was Nokia's suggestion (to which NM actually objects)
Tim: minimum is clean up text:
<timbl_> [RDFXML] uses simple concatenation of the namespace URI and
the local
<timbl_> name to creates a URI for the identified term.
<timbl_> I wish that RDFXML had added "#", but there we are.
Noah: I like that somewhat better than Nokia's. My concern with
Nokia's is that it appears to apply even to namespaces that don't end
in some sort of separator character.
Tim: right, and there's still the question of whether the
concatenated
URI is actually one that the owner intended to assign for the purpose
NW: I somewhat agree with Noah's concerns. Maybe we can talk about
URI's ending in non-name characters?
Stuart: Noah, would you drop the whole para
NM: Yes, I guess so.
SW: I hear 3 proposals as follows:
From Norm: change reference to # to "separator characters"
From Noah: drop the para
From Tim: text quoted above?
SW: anyone who can't live any of these?
NW: yes, I don't like dropping the para (Norm, I didn't get the
reason)
NW; drafting proposed text...
<DanC>
[21]http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/PR-webarch-20041105/#xml-namespaces
[21] http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/PR-webarch-20041105/#xml-namespaces
NM: that's name char from XML rec?
NW: yes
DC: we're talking about XML namespaces here
I think this is the net of Norm's proposal:
For flat namespaces, concatenation is one useful mapping. If
namespace
URIs that end with a that end with a punctuation or other non-Name
character are chosen, then simple concatenation of the namespace URI
and the local name creates a URI for a secondary resource (the
identified term). This technique is used for many [RDFXML]
namespaces.
Some discussion of colon as an edge case.
NW: important point, we need an algorithmic way of breaking these
apart once they're together. By making sure there's a non-name char,
we ensure that property.
TBL: In webarch, is this an example?
NW: it's a suggestion.
TBL: Suggesting you can use anything other than # prejudges
httprange-14, at least insofar as once you use an x/y form to refer
to
a non-document resource.
Stuart: Tim, do you object to the proposal to drop the text?
<DanC> (I sent "test case: colons in paths?" to uri@w3.org)
TBL: we talk about fragids elsewhere
NW: perhaps we're at impasse. Nokia objects to #, Tim wants #, each
feeling the other prejudges http-range14. Therefore, suggest Tim's
text as best compromise.
... It mentions what RDF does, nothing more.
SW: I note some popular RDF namespaces end in "/"
<DanC> reviewing, yes, I like: [[
<DanC> <timbl_> [RDFXML] uses simple concatenation of the namespace
URI and the local
<DanC> <timbl_> name to creates a URI for the identified term. ]]
<Norm> Proposal: For flat namespaces, concatenation is one useful
mapping. This technique is used for many [RDFXML] namespaces.
<DanC> (hmm... in fact, it's used for all RDFXML namespaces)
<timbl_> Note that one set of mappings, such as those which either
insert a hash sign or use simple allows the local identifier in XML
syntax to be equal to the the fragment identifier in the URI syntax.
<DanC> timbl, please do not refer to hash characters.
<Norm> Proposal: For many flat namespaces, concatenation is one
useful
mapping. This technique is used by [RDFXML]
<DanC> i still prefer: [RDFXML] uses simple concatenation of the
namespace URI and the local name to creates a URI for the identified
term.
NM: How about /used by [RDFXML] namespaces/used by many [RDFXML]
namespaces/
For many flat namespaces, concatenation is one useful mapping. This
technique is used by [RDFXML] namespaces."
Proposal (again with correction): "For many flat namespaces,
concatenation is one useful mapping. This technique is used by
[RDFXML].""
TB: how about dropping work "many"
<DanC> [[
<DanC> [RDFXML] uses simple concatenation of the namespace URI and
the
local name to create a URI for the identified term.
<DanC> ]]
NM: two problems (a) still a general problem if there is no separator
at all (b) I now notice that if there's no separator, you are also
prejudging http-range14
Proposal, replace the entire paragraph with: "[RDFXML] uses simple
concatenation of the namespace URI and the local name to creates a
URI
for the identified term."
ALso in the proposal: merge with following paragraph.
Agreed without dissent.
<scribe> ACTION: Dan to talk to Steve Bratt regarding changes to
namespace and #
SW: anything else to discuss with respect to webarch publication?
DC: You've seen press release, and there have been some comments. You
only need to speak up if you want to get into the critical path.
... Goal is to get release out tomorrow, may slip to Wed.
NW: Slipping to Wed. would help Sun.
SW: Any other testimonials expected?
NW: Are we satisfied that the work we've done would satisfy
Edinburgh?
DC: The director has been in contact with commentator.
<DanC>
[22]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/diff-from-pr.txt
[22]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/diff-from-pr.txt
<DanC> @@ -2539,7 +2544,9 @@
NW: Patrick Stickler has sent some additional comments about a week
ago.
DC: see the diffs, we've made some changes.
<Norm> Stickler:
[23]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004Oc
tDec/0169.html
[23]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0
169.html
TBL: We seem to have dropped any mention that the namespace document
is in any way connected to the URI that is the namespace name.
<timbl_> The information resource identified by an XML Namespace URI
<timbl_> + An information resource that contains useful information,
<timbl_> + machine-processable and/or human-readable, about terms in
a
<timbl_> + particular XML namespace.
<DanC> (hmm... I thought the glossary was just excerpts from the main
text. not so, evidently)
<Norm> not so
<timbl_> ^that an XML Namespace URI^
<timbl_> ^that an XML Namespace URI identifies
<Zakim> Norm, you wanted to ask about Edinburgh and Stickler and to
Non-scribe contribution. Note that Stickler says:
"I again propose to the TAG that the definition of 'namespace
document'
not reflect any presumption about what any given URI used as a
namespace name might identify, but to restrict the definition of
'namespace document' to the distinguishing characteristics of
that class of resource, and at most, to indicate that it is
considered useful to use URIs which identify namespace documents
as namespace names, without erroneously asserting that every URI
used as a namespace name identifies a namespace document."
TBL: I don't see him objecting to saying that the URI which is a
namespace name can be used to identify a namespace document
... Would Dave Ragett's (spelling?) book on HTML be a namespace
document? Per our current definition, it would be.
<DanC> (I abstain from any definitions that are written out of the
context of the rest of the document.)
<Norm> Proposal: An information resource identified by an XML
Namespace URI that contains useful information, machine-usable and/or
human-usable, about terms in a particular XML namespace. It is
useful,
though not manditory, that the URI employed as a namespace name
identifies a namespace document.
SW: Notes that Patrick Stickler wrote: "It is useful, though not
manditory,
that the URI employed as a namespace name identifies a namespace
document.
"
<Stuart>
[24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004Oc
tDec/0169.html
[24]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0
169.html
SW: I'm OK with it, but not sure Patrick Stickler will be.
NW: but if we don't put this in, then the HTML book qualifies.
TBL: I'm not so sure he'd object.
<timbl_> I would not expect him to object to that.
DC: I think the objection was to the suggestion that >every< NS URI
necessarily points to such a document.
<timbl_> +1 to Norm's proposal
SW: Calling the question on: "Proposal: An information resource
identified by an XML Namespace URI that contains useful information,
machine-usable and/or human-usable, about terms in a particular XML
namespace. It is useful, though not manditory, that the URI employed
as a namespace name identifies a namespace document."
Agreed without abstention.
<timbl_> Agreed unanimously.
<DanC> (hmm... now there are changes incoming from NDW and from IJ.
interesting.)
NW: I've checked in already the two changes we've agreed to make
today.
SW: anyone here in the critical path for press release?
DC: no
SW: anything more on webarch?
All: no
<DanC> (hmm... who said they'd do something soon in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/11/29-30-tag ? )
[25] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/11/29-30-tag
Issues and Findings
SW: any comments on the xml-chunk finding
NW: I've gotten some feedback, but haven't sorted it.
SW: possible agenda topic for next week?
<timbl> before we break, I have one heads-up off the record.
NW: yes, I could do that
<DanC> [26]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/11/29-30-tag#item08b
[26] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/11/29-30-tag#item08b
SW: let's have at least a brief telcon next week
<Norm> DanC: I've checked in the two changes we discussed today, am I
off the critical path for the WebArch REC?
<DanC> hmm
<DanC> if you prefer, yes. you're welcome to provide eyeballs on the
final text, title page, SOTD, that sort of thing
<DanC> i.e. as editor, you have right of review of the final bytes
<Norm> Ok. I'm happy to provide eyeballs. I wasn't asking in an
effort
to get out of working, just to make sure we didn't have a deadlock
:-)
<DanC> ok, then I take it that you're not waiving that right, and you
are, as of now, still on the critical path
<DanC> you may wave it at any time
<Norm> No, I'm not waiving it. I'll keep my eyeballs tuned :-)
<DanC> there, Noah, the logs are captured. Scribe duties include at
least mailing a pointer to www-tag@w3.org
<DanC> bonus points for editing it
<DanC> there's a perl script that sorta makes nice HTML out of the
IRC
log, but if you haven't done it before, it's perhaps not worth
bothering
<DanC> hmm... I'm not entirely clear how we disposed of Nokia's 1st 2
points.
<DanC>
[27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004Oc
tDec/0170.html
[27]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0
170.html
<DanC> ugh... no "persistence" change in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/diff-from-pr.txt
[28]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/diff-from-pr.txt
<Norm> Gack. We started with point 3 so I assumed 1 and 2 had been
done earlier.
<Norm> Personally, I'm happy with the changes they propose.
<DanC> let's see what Ian said about those... "I think TBL input is
important here so I did not make any changes"
<DanC> phpht.
<timbl_> Norm?
<DanC>
[29]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004Oc
tDec/0170.html
[29]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0
170.html
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Dan to talk to Steve Bratt regarding changes to
... namespace and #
_________________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [30]scribe.perl 1.99 ([31]CVS
log)
$Date: 2004/12/17 10:01:23 $
[30] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribe.perl
[31] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/scribe.perl
Received on Friday, 17 December 2004 10:09:14 UTC