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Minutes, 22 May 2014 SVG WG telcon

From: Erik Dahlström <ed@opera.com>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 16:13:25 +0200
To: "www-svg@w3.org" <www-svg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <op.xf9lsnmidhsuf5@gnorps>


as text below:


       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                     SVG Working Group Teleconference

22 May 2014


       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014May/0039.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2014/05/22-svg-irc


           cabanier, krit, Tav, ed, stakagi, nikos, Rich


           ed, nikos, krit


      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Cleaning up SVG2
          2. [6]text-decoration-color
          3. [7]textLength and <tspan>
          4. [8]vertical-align, baseline-shift, alignment-baseline,
      * [9]Summary of Action Items

    <trackbot> Date: 22 May 2014

    <krit> need a minute

    <ed> scribeNick: ed

Cleaning up SVG2


      [10] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014May/0022.html

    krit: we discussed on ML, want to remove sections...
    ... first part ...(missed)
    ... second part, we should make css always convert to svg (???)

    <nikos> scribenick: nikos

    Tav: 2 issues here
    ... you want all css stuff in one place. I don't think that's a
    good idea
    ... text stuff should be in the text section
    ... I want to see what css modules apply in the text section,
    not hidden elsewhere in the spec
    ... second issue is that if someone is looking at the spec,
    it's good to see what the css modules are being used for
    ... e.g. filter chapter should have small section with
    explanation of what filter is and one or two examples and then
    refer to css spec
    ... this way someone looking at the chapter can get a quick
    idea of what it's about
    ... you also asked that text sections be moved. e.g.
    ... text-decoration has problems interacting with svg
    ... would be great if that's solved in the spec but I still
    think we should have examples
    ... what parts of css modules apply to what versions of svg?
    ... to answer that we have to have something in the svg spec
    stating what parts of css are used
    ... I don't think you can just remove stuff that is defined by
    ... I think text-indent could be removed, but there's details
    to be discussed. does it apply to svg 1.1 style text or just
    when you have a region for layout?

    krit: I don't want to get into detail for each section
    ... in general I don't think we should preserve svg 1.1. style
    ... we should remove anything that is duplicated
    ... e.g. filters has no content
    ... all the sections with no content can be removed in my eyes
    ... of course there are links that need to be defined
    ... how certain things apply to svg needs to be defined
    ... but it doesn't make sense to have text for everything
    ... going back to filter effects example, I think examples can
    be in the filter effects spec
    ... it's not a handbook, it's a specification for implementers
    ... even examples can be out-dated
    ... why not just say you can apply filter effects and link to
    the spec
    ... we have nothing about blending in the svg spec yet blending
    applies to svg

    Tav: I think we should have short sections for each. I hate
    having to click through multiple specifications

    krit: that's always going to be the case, whether examples are
    given or not
    ... we need an interactions module that explains how parts of
    other specs are used
    ... we need normative text if there is svg specific behaviour

    Tav: I think when you look at what can be cut it will be quite

    krit: well I definitely don't want to cut everything

    Tav: when I look through the css specs, fonts 3 is a good
    example, it has lots of examples and I find it easy to

    krit: every other css spec should be the same
    ... svg should concentrate on svg itself
    ... we agree we need a section that explains the interaction
    with the css modules

    Tav: yes

    krit: can we agree sections with no content but just links to
    other specs. e.g. text-align

    Tav: I agree that when the spec is done we can clean that up.
    but dont agree that we can remove right away
    ... we need to look at each section as a whole and work out
    what is valuable to keep

    <krit> scribenick: krit

    krit: Can we agree that each section needs a review as well as
    the CSS counter part and that we need to check the whole CSS
    module if and how it applies to SVG before we remove anything?

    Tav: Yes, absolutely

    <scribe> ACTION: Tav to review CSS Text decoration and CSS3
    Text and compare it with SVG [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3626 - Review css text decoration and
    css3 text and compare it with svg [on Tavmjong Bah - due

    <scribe> ACTION: krit to review CSS Text decoration and CSS3
    Text and compare it with SVG [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3627 - Review css text decoration and
    css3 text and compare it with svg [on Dirk Schulze - due


    Tav: problem is that the property allows a single color to be
    defined to a text decoration
    ... SVG on the other hand allows fill and stroke for the text
    ... how could we make these apply with text-decoration-color
    ... it would desireable to define a pattern or gradient on the
    text decoration

    ed: so the fill of text on the stroke of text decoration?

    Tav: something like that

    <ed> I meant: text-decoration-fill and text-decoration-stroke

    krit: don't we have context-stroke and context fill on svg

    Tav: yes
    ... but a values

    krit: right, could text-decor-color take these keywords?
    ... you can not define stroke and fill separately for

    Tav: but does it apply to the stroke or fill of the text
    decoration itself
    ... it would be interesting to know if fill and stroke will
    apply to text in cSS as well

    krit: 1) yes fill and stroke will apply to html text in the

    Tav: in a way compatible to SVG

    krit: we should make sure that this is the case for the CSS WG

    Tav: concerned that this will not be the case

    krit: filla nd stroke will apply to text in CSS as it applies
    to SVG elements today
    ... would the SVG WG accept to change initial value for fill to
    ... that could solve the problem with color and fill on text
    for HTML and SVG

    ed: what is the value of color if not defined?

    krit: it is an inheriting property
    ... ancestor sets color
    ... it no ancestor does, it is black

    <ed> scribeNick: ed

    ed: are the benefits worth it? what problems would it solve?

    nikos: I think dirk meant that you could then specify the fill
    and stroke separately
    ... currentColor seems a bit weird

    <nikos> nikos: I think Dirk was meaning that you could set
    text-decoration-fill without setting text-decoration-stroke and
    if stroke was enabled then it would get a sensible value from

    ed: another question is: how important is it to be able to
    control fill and stroke separately for text-decoration

    tav: you can already do it using another tspan
    ... simple thing to fix if we have CSSWG on board

    ed: so this is option 3 in your writeup, correct?

    tav: yes, combined with option 2, setting
    'text-decoration-color' set text 'fill'

    ed: ok, let's see what feedback the css editors give us on that

textLength and <tspan>


      [13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014May/0011.html

    ed: there's variety of behavior for textLength combined with
    tspan, I'm thinking that the spec might be too vague
    ... tav what do you think?
    ... it gets a little tricky when you have textLength both on
    parent <text> and on a child <tspan>
    ... not sure the spec covers that in enough detail

    tav: you'd use the textlenght from the tspan, and then use that
    to go back to the parent

    nikos: yes, that's the way i read it too

    ed: we have no tests for this in the testsuite yet

    tav: suggest that thomas proposes some clarified spec text, and
    a test

    <scribe> ACTION: thomas to propose clarifications for
    textLength and <tspan>, and to submit some tests to the svg2
    testsuite for this [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3628 - Propose clarifications for
    textlength and <tspan>, and to submit some tests to the svg2
    testsuite for this [on Thomas Smailus - due 2014-05-29].

vertical-align, baseline-shift, alignment-baseline, dominant-baseline

    tav: inkscape has baseline-shift for sub and super scripts

    ed: what about alignment-baseline / dominant-baseline?

    tav: don't think so

    ed: CL sent a mail with the conclusion from csswg on letting
    svg2 define these properties for now

    tav: fine with me

    trackbot, end telcon

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: krit to review CSS Text decoration and CSS3 Text
    and compare it with SVG [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: Tav to review CSS Text decoration and CSS3 Text
    and compare it with SVG [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: thomas to propose clarifications for textLength
    and <tspan>, and to submit some tests to the svg2 testsuite for
    this [recorded in

    [End of minutes]

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      [18] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [19] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

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Agenda: [21]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014May/0039.htm
Found Date: 22 May 2014
Guessing minutes URL: [22]http://www.w3.org/2014/05/22-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: krit tav thomas

      [21] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014May/0039.html
      [22] http://www.w3.org/2014/05/22-svg-minutes.html

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      [23] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm

Erik Dahlstrom, Web Technology Developer, Opera Software
Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group
Received on Thursday, 22 May 2014 14:14:17 UTC

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