- From: Brian Birtles <bbirtles@mozilla.com>
- Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 15:15:45 -0800 (PST)
- To: www-svg@w3.org
Minutes from the 16 January 2014 meeting are below.
http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-svg-minutes.html
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
16 Jan 2014
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2014JanMar/0012.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
Regrets
Chair
Cameron
Scribe
birtles
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]removing animateColor from SVG2
2. [6]Panel session at Graphical Web 2014
3. [7]Agenda requests for Seattle F2F
4. [8]percentage on objectBoundingBox relative to the
bounding box of the object?
5. [9]Which viewport to use when SVG resource (<pattern>,
<mask>, ...) and affected element are in two different
viewports
6. [10]Background reference boxes in SVG
* [11]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 16 January 2014
<scribe> scribenick: birtles
<scribe> scribe: birtles
removing animateColor from SVG2
ed: I raised the topic because I recently filed a patch to
remove animateColor from blink
... I don't think there's any reason to keep it around in SVG2
any longer since you can do everything animateColor can do with
animate anyway
krit: we kept it just because of legacy reasons
... but we agree that there's no need for it
ed: the reason we decided to remove it from blink is that the
usage is very low
krit: the problem with the usage counters is we don't know how
much SVG is used
... but we deprecated animateColor in SVG 1.1 so I have no
problem with removing it from SVG2
... but we will probably keep it around in WebKit, maybe for
the short-term
ed: so are we ok with removing it from SVG2?
shepazu: I guess so
... I understand that it is redundant
... but my only concern is existing content, but there's
probably very little content
krit: I think we deprecated in 1.1 not 1.1SE right?
ed: yes
krit: then we can probably remove it
s/1.1SE not 1.1/
heycam: what sort of usage numbers did you get?
ed: less than 1 usage per week? a lot less than 1% anyway
shepazu: but we don't know how that compares to usage of SVG in
general
... so it's really guess from intuition
... how much is animate used
ed: a lot since libraries use it to test for SMIL support
shepazu: how about animateTransform?
... but I think we're going to remove it anyway
ed: it's very easy to work around by just aliasing to animate
using javascript
heycam: have you already landed the patch to remove it?
ed: yes
shepazu: let's just remove it
... we already deprecated it right?
ed: yes
shepazu: are we going to leave any mention of it?
heycam: I don't think we need to
shepazu: but we should mention it somewhere, like the changes
appendix
heycam: we can mention it there
RESOLUTION: We will remove animateColor from SVG2 (and mention
it in the changes appendix)
<krit> ACTION: erik and brian to figure out who gets the action
[recorded in
[12]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3557 - And brian to figure out who
gets the action [on Erik Dahlström - due 2014-01-23].
<scribe> ACTION: Erik to remove animateColor from SVG2
[recorded in
[13]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3558 - Remove animatecolor from svg2
[on Erik Dahlström - due 2014-01-23].
Panel session at Graphical Web 2014
heycam: I got email from Michael Neutze and David Dailey about
updating the w3c page to refer to the Graphical Web
... for this year's conference since we were still pointing to
last year's conference
... and they were also asking whether we had plans to meet at
the conference and if we want to present a panel session
... so do you want to present a session?
<heycam> [14]http://graphicalweb.org/2014/
[14] http://graphicalweb.org/2014/
krit: do you mean a working group session like in previous
years?
heycam: yes
krit: well then, why not?
... we should actually look at who will host the next meetings
heycam: we should. For September it's more open since we might
not meet out in Winchester
... but for the next one...
krit: we (Adobe) are hosting for Seattle but not for the next
one
(some discussion about arrangements for April)
heycam: so can we say we will do a panel session?
krit, shepazu: yes
heycam: Mozilla may be a host if we don't mind meeting in
London at that time
shepazu: we could also have an open day where people from the
conference can come and meet with people from the WG
... and attend the F2F
... David Storey from Microsoft are organizing a session
between CSS and SVG WG meetings, a hacker meetup
heycam: on the Tuesday night? Wednesday night?
shepazu: yes
... David asked me to present at the little meet-up. Anyone
else is also welcome to present
heycam: Tues or Wed?
shepazu: Wed I think
... you can present about anything SVG/CSS related
... keep it in mind. I'll do a quick SVG accessibility talk
... the theme is "CSS and Web Graphics"
... they'd like a presentation on "What's coming up in SVG2?"
... so if you can point me to any slidedecks on this
heycam: I'll try to find my slides from a talk several years
ago
birtles: I could do the animation demo from SVGOpen if needed
Agenda requests for Seattle F2F
<heycam>
[15]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Seattle_2013/Age
nda_proposals
[15] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Seattle_2013/Agenda_proposals
krit: I'd like to add a few agenda requests
heycam: go ahead and add them
... I'd just like to remind people to add items
... it's been quite a short time between F2Fs, maybe there's
not so much to add, but if we have remaining time we can use it
for spec editing
shepazu: I think I will have the demo version of the annotation
thing going on the web audio spec so I could possibly demo that
percentage on objectBoundingBox relative to the bounding box of the
object?
krit: so you have things like <mask>, <pattern> etc. and for
the content you can switch between objectBoundingBox or
userSpaceOnUse
... for objectBoundingBox you can use numbers from 0..1 or
percentages but I'm not really sure what percentages actually
mean
heycam: my naive understanding was 100% = 1 but I guess that's
not the case
krit: yes, it doesn't seem to be
... I would interpret the spec text as percentages of the
viewport but I don't think that is a good idea
heycam: I think making them viewport-relative would be
confusing
krit: I was hoping someone would know what browsers are
actually doing?
<scribe> ACTION: Dirk to investigate what browsers actually do
for percentage values for objectBoundingBox with pattern, mask
etc. [recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3559 - Investigate what browsers
actually do for percentage values for objectboundingbox with
pattern, mask etc. [on Dirk Schulze - due 2014-01-23].
krit: I posted this question on the mailing list...
<heycam>
[17]http://www.w3.org/mid/7DADDAB2-1EE8-40D5-A697-472ECA7B4078@
adobe.com
[17] http://www.w3.org/mid/7DADDAB2-1EE8-40D5-A697-472ECA7B4078@adobe.com
heycam: so this is percentages within the content of the
pattern etc.
... and it says they get resolved against the viewport
... and objectBoundingBox doesn't establish a new viewport
right?
krit: no they don't, but they can
heycam: from your email it looks like something should change
... does anyone else have an opinion about whether it is a good
idea that percentages apply against the viewport if we defined
what that is?
... and which viewport would that be?
krit: that's the next item on the agenda
shepazu: should we deprecate symbol?
Tav: it's implemented and used in maps etc.
krit: it's not implemented correctly thought
shepazu: <symbol> is actually useless
krit: it has an implicit visibility:hidden
shepazu: but you don't need it
heycam: does <symbol> have the same sizing behavior as <svg>?
??: yes
krit: Illustrator exports <symbol> so deprecate ok, but not
removing
... we could add a note saying authors don't need to use it
shepazu: I suggest we define it in terms of <svg>
... just sugar for <svg>
heycam: I wonder if there is scope for improving the
functionality of <symbol>
... if there are use cases surrounding re-using graphics
shepazu: let's add that to an agenda sometime
heycam: please it add it to the F2F agenda
Which viewport to use when SVG resource (<pattern>, <mask>, ...) and
affected element are in two different viewports
krit: so it is quite clear that in these cases that viewport is
that of the referencing element
... according to the spec
... but none of the browsers implementations do that
... the only implementations that do that are Opera (Presto),
Inkscape and Batik
heycam: what is the incorrect behaviour?
krit: if you have a path element in one viewport and a pattern
in the other
... the pattern should use the viewport of the path element for
resolving sizes like percentages
... but browsers take the viewport of the pattern (or mask
etc.) element instead
... which doesn't really make sense but that's what browsers
do: IE, Chrome, Firefox, Opera
heycam: I suspect what the spec says may be more useful
krit: it might be useful
... but reality is that none of the browsers are following the
spec but are still interoperable
... the browsers are aware of the bug (or at least Robert
Longson identified it in Firefox)
<krit> [18]https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=866655
[18] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=866655
krit: it is also known in WebKit
... but it was too difficult to fix it
... not worth the effort
heycam: so are you suggesting we just spec what the browsers
are currently doing?
Tav: I don't agree. If it's more useful to do it as currently
specced then we should do that
heycam: yeah, I think I agree
krit: from the specification point of view it doesn't matter
since we have at least two implementations of each alternative
... if we keep the current spec, it might take sometime before
browsers come into line
heycam: we could add tests to the suite for this
krit: I can do that
heycam: if you can construct an example where it is actually
useful, that would help
krit: but when are percentages resolved relative to the
viewport ever useful?
heycam: if you have a grid pattern and shapes that should be
aligned with the grid pattern?
krit: I think you would use absolute values in this case
... it's an edge case
<scribe> ACTION: Dirk to create a test case for the test suite
covering percentage units resolved against the viewport of the
referencing element [recorded in
[19]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-svg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3560 - Create a test case for the
test suite covering percentage units resolved against the
viewport of the referencing element [on Dirk Schulze - due
2014-01-23].
<krit> [20]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Agenda
[20] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Agenda
Background reference boxes in SVG
krit: What affect has a reference box (padding-box,
content-box, border-box, margin-box) to a basic shape in SVG
i.e. clip-path: circle() margin-box?
... HTML has the concept of a content box
... what we would call the object bounding box
... then it has a padding box which we don't have in SVG
... then border box and margin box neither of which we have in
SVG
... we do have stroke however (similar to border box)
Tav: I had to look at this with regards to text wrapping
... and in SVG I think we need separate values
krit: I'd rather avoid adding extra keywords
Tav: I think that's confusing from an author's point of view
krit: in any case we need to define what these keywords mean
Tav: there's the viewport, bounding box (fill + stroke
versions)
heycam: these keywords change how the values in the property
get interpreted
... so if you use one of these basic-shape functions in the
value these keywords change how they get interpreted
... I think it will be common that people will want to do
things relative to the stroke bounding box of the shapes
... so if we were to line it up with these keywords then
border-box seems like a possible candidate but I think
border-box has a very specific meaning
krit: anyway I just wanted to introduce the issue, we can
continue on the mailing list
<Tav> I got cut off and the conference is now restricted....
heycam: no telcon next week since some people will be
travelling by then
... next time we meet is the F2F in Seattle
... if you have outstanding issues on the mailing list, please
add them to the agenda for the F2F
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Dirk to create a test case for the test suite
covering percentage units resolved against the viewport of the
referencing element [recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-svg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Dirk to investigate what browsers actually do for
percentage values for objectBoundingBox with pattern, mask etc.
[recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: erik and brian to figure out who gets the action
[recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Erik to remove animateColor from SVG2 [recorded
in [24]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/16-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
Received on Thursday, 16 January 2014 23:16:13 UTC