Minutes, 12 September 2013 SVG WG telcon

Minutes from this week's SVG WG telcon are below.

http://www.w3.org/2013/09/12-svg-minutes.html


    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                     SVG Working Group Teleconference

12 Sep 2013

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JulSep/0091.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2013/09/12-svg-irc

Attendees

    Present
           +1.425.373.aaaa, [IPcaller], birtles, ed,
           +1.612.789.aabb, heycam, nikos, TavAndro, Rich

    Regrets
    Chair
           SV_MEETING_CHAIR

    Scribe
           nikos

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Merging Text chapter rewrite into SVG 2
          2. [6]Connector syntax
          3. [7]Planning Survey
          4. [8]New Name for Paint Order Property
          5. [9]Timeline for SVG 2
          6. [10]TPAC
      * [11]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 12 September 2013

    <krit> heycam: Can not call in

    <krit> heycam: just status update on Matrix

    <krit> heycam: we (CSS WG) decided to prefix all new geometry
    APIs with DOM

    <krit> heycam: means Matrix would be DOMMatrix

    <heycam> krit, ok. good thing I haven't organised the document
    to be published yet. (sorry.)

    <krit> heycam: I will update the spec today so that it is ready
    for publication

    <scribe> scribenick: nikos

Merging Text chapter rewrite into SVG 2

    tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/publish/text.html

    Tav: I've restructured this chapter under the premise that SVG
    2 will define text in terms of CSS
    ... in such a way that SVG 1.1 text is still valid
    ... SVG 1.1 text is a special case
    ... everything defined in terms of a content area (CSS term)
    ... SVG 1.1 the content area is an infinite rect
    ... introduction now reflects that
    ... and text layout sections
    ... I'd like people to comment whether this is the right
    direction
    ... and whether I should move my changes to the current ED

    heycam: I'm in favour of this direction. It fits in well with
    my implementation
    ... you should do the merge
    ... I wonder if a bit more work is required before we publish
    next WD

    Tav: I've marked lots of little issues
    ... which CSS levels do we reference, etc
    ... over the next few meetings it would be good to work through
    those issues

    heycam: seems like a good approach

    Tav: it's a very big chapter

    heycam: I'm keen to reduce stuff in this chapter
    ... a lot of the properties don't need to be defined in this
    chapter
    ... we can refer to CSS
    ... mode, direction, unicode bidi, etc

    Tav: I'd like a reader to be able to get an idea of what the
    property is about

    heycam: it's fine to mention them, just not full definitions
    ... in favour of lots of examples

    Tav: I'll work on getting more in
    ... the way CSS defines direction is different than SVG 1.1
    ... it's kind of reversed
    ... various little inconsistencies to be worked out

    heycam: I don't think we've discussed the individual
    properties. We've just generally talked about referencing CSS
    ... I think it's a good idea to bring them up over future
    meetings

    ed: I think the way that bidi works in SVG is not consistent
    across the various browsers so we don't risk breaking much if
    we change how it works
    ... that's my experience anyway

    heycam: bidi text should be pretty good in Firefox now

    Tav: If no other comments, I'll merge it into the ED when I get
    back to France

Connector syntax

    [12]http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/CONNECTORS/index.xhtml

      [12] http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/CONNECTORS/index.xhtml

    Tav: I started on a connector proposal
    ... the proposal I have is fairly simple
    ... The main thing is the 'point' element
    ... we talked about this being standalone as well as for
    connectors
    ... you define connectors between the points
    ... what I'd like to do is to define the point inside a
    rectangle so I can use the bounding box of the rectangle to
    place the point
    ... InkScape implementation currently relies on groups so
    doesn't have this ability yet
    ... connector is just a straight line at the moment
    ... I think that's fine to start with
    ... start and end are specified by order not explicitly
    ... Next step is to have intermediate points
    ... This allows corners
    ... If you flip the connector over, the points will also flip
    ... sometimes you want to specify a path
    ... example 4 shows that
    ... the one major point I've found relates to using symbols
    ... it would be good to re-use symbols in a connected diagram
    like this
    ... how to you specify a point on a symbol?
    ... I don't have a solution at the moment
    ... I have an example of what I'd like to achieve
    ... Can you guys think of a way?
    ... I envision a 'level 2' spec with additional routing
    features
    ... a list of 'ports' which are points and the router decides
    the best to connect to

    heycam: In the past we've talked about how far to go with
    routing. Possibly don't want too much automatic routing.

    Tav: Another extension is to specify a radius that would
    control curve of the connection
    ... There isn't that much difference between connectors and
    paths
    ... you could do connectors with paths by specifying a
    connector-type and overriding the d attribute
    ... ultimately I'd like to not have a connector element, but to
    place the attributes on path
    ... enables fall back as well

    heycam: maybe instead of having connector path attribute you
    could change the path data syntax to reference points
    ... that would destroy the fall back mechanism though

    Tav: you get some of that by using relative path elements

    heycam: The other thing that we've talked about was having more
    control regarding the automatic ports on a shape
    ... percentages work well for bounding box of rect, but not so
    much for circle

    Tav: for circles, you describe the points relative to the
    transformed bounding box

    heycam: Let's say you have two circles. You want the bottom
    right most point of one circle connecting to the top most point
    of the other
    ... You'd have to do some trig

    Tav: one possible solution would be to define the point at the
    centre and tell the connector it stops at the edge of the
    object.
    ... I think it adds a level of complexity that will make
    implementing difficult initially

    heycam: I think it will be a common use case

    Tav: We should think of a way to do it but I don't think it
    should be in Level 1

    heycam: Overall I think this looks like a good starting point

    <TabAtkins> Forcing trig just to do one of the most common
    things in level 1 isn't great...

    Tav: I'd like to get comments from Doug
    ... The one major problem I have is how to reference a point in
    a symbol

    heycam: Maybe not using id within the symbol, using some
    exported name, and having a separate syntax inside the point
    ... The only place this might have come up in CSS is web
    components
    ... I think there's a way to have CSS connectors cross the
    boundary and reference things in the shadow tree
    ... maybe a selector based mechanism could work?

    Tav: I'm not in favour of adding selector type stuff to the
    syntax

    heycam: It would significantly complicate it
    ... Did you want to get comments from Doug before everyone
    decides whether this should be an ED?

    Tav: I'm not sure what the next step is. Doug has a connectors
    draft also so want his input.

    heycam: How about you ask Doug to give comments within the next
    week to see if the general direction fits in with his draft

    <heycam>
    [13]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/connector/SVGConnector.html

      [13] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/connector/SVGConnector.html

    Tav: how do people feel about defining point in another object?

    heycam: makes sense to me

    Tav: I'll email Doug

    <scribe> ACTION: Tav to discuss with Doug and look at merging
    text from his connectors proposal in with Doug's proposal
    [recorded in
    [14]http://www.w3.org/2013/09/12-svg-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3524 - Discuss with doug and look at
    merging text from his connectors proposal in with doug's
    proposal [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2013-09-19].

Planning Survey

    <ed>
    [15]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JulSe
    p/0095.html

      [15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JulSep/0095.html

    heycam: Cam posted to the mailing list. Just a reminder to
    please fill it out so that we can plan the coming year.

    oops that was ed

New Name for Paint Order Property

    <ed>
    [16]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JulSe
    p/0093.html

      [16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JulSep/0093.html

    heycam: last I heard, the CSS WG didn't have a strong opinion
    on the name
    ... I don
    ... I don't think they out and out disliked it

    Tav: CSS don't use the word paint. But the concept in SVG is
    very ingrained
    ... I'm not sure another word would be better
    ... CSS WG are worried about connection between z-order and
    paint-order

    <heycam> [17]http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/zindex.html talks about
    "Painting order", which includes painting parts of objects in a
    particular order (background, borders, etc.)

      [17] http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/zindex.html

    Tav: I'm inclined to ask CSS WG for more details on why they
    don't like 'paint-order'

    heycam: CSS 2.1 defines a painting order which defines the
    painting of the whole subtree
    ... but also defines order within an object
    ... so painting order is already being used there to mean what
    I intended with 'paint-order'
    ... CSS WG might consider it confusing if their painting order
    includes order of elements as well

    Tav: I'd like to make sure they are clear that we are not
    talking about z-order
    ... I'm not sure that was understood

    heycam: none of the other suggested names have read as well as
    paint-order

    <TabAtkins> We definitely know it's not about z-order.

    heycam: I wonder if there's a CSS term for the parts of an
    element?

    <heycam> like border, background, etc.?

    ed: In general I think this could be applied to how CSS boxes
    are painted, but I'm not sure it's that interesting

    heycam: shape-part-order?

    nikos: what about something like in-shape-order to
    differentiate that it's within the element and not the scene

    heycam: so how do we proceed?
    ... if we can't come up with a name that we all think is
    better?

    Tav: I think we should go back to the CSS group

    ed: We'll let them know we haven't come up with improved
    suggestions

    heycam: Cameron to email the CSS WG regarding the naming of
    paint-order

    <scribe> ACTION: Cameron to email the CSS WG regarding the
    naming of paint-order [recorded in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2013/09/12-svg-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-3525 - Email the css wg regarding the
    naming of paint-order [on Cameron McCormack - due 2013-09-19].

Timeline for SVG 2

    Tav: Is there anything major that hasn't gone in yet?

    heycam: We should consult the wiki page

    birtles: I still need to work on variable width stroke

    <TabAtkins> Those "parts" are the boxes of the element.

    <TabAtkins> Alternately: layers.

    richardschwerdtfeger: The UI events spec is still changing
    constantly and we are referencing it
    ... for mouse events, keyboard, etc
    ... we took out mutation events but we're waiting for it to
    settle
    ... I don't know what their timeline is
    ... I'll email them

    heycam: There's a couple of things that Doug wanted to do, like
    Catmull Rom curve

    Tav: I've not seen progress so I don't know if we have time

    heycam: That's one I really wanted to see in

    birtles: There's also the outstanding work of integrating
    iframe and video
    ... Takagi-san has the action. I'll help him.

    ed: Dirk is listed for video
    ... and for track
    ... but it's possible theres multiple actions for it
    ... I was wondering about the xlink namespace removal
    ... It's one of the bigger things that I'd like to see go in

    heycam: That's on Chris
    ... my point in bringing up this topic is to propose that we
    have some cut off date where if progress hasn't been made on a
    feature, then we'll drop it
    ... a couple of months before release
    ... I'm proposing end of first quarter 2014

    Tav: that should be plenty of time
    ... I would consider moving it up, since once the text is in
    there is still lots of discussion,etc required

    heycam: I would consider that
    ... there are a bunch of non-feature things to do - cleaning
    up, referencing, etc
    ... that kind of work, I imagine, will be the last that we do
    before LCWD

    Tav: I'd propose end of the year

    heycam: I'd suggested LCWD in Q1
    ... which would make the cut off in January or December
    ... May co-inside with our first F2F of 2014
    ... have all feature stuff in by then
    ... if it's early we can have stuff added then spend F2F
    discussing issues
    ... then spend rest of quarter fixing up spec
    ... easiest to just say end of 2013 is feature cut off date

    all: that's ok

    RESOLUTION: End of 2013 will be cut off date for adding new
    features to SVG 2 draft

TPAC

    birtles: I'd like to settle on a day for the combined CSS day
    so we can organise our travel

    heycam: will either be Tuesday or Thursday or a combination of
    the two

    birtles: if it's not going to be Monday then that's fine

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Cameron to email the CSS WG regarding the naming
    of paint-order [recorded in
    [19]http://www.w3.org/2013/09/12-svg-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: Tav to discuss with Doug and look at merging text
    from his connectors proposal in with Doug's proposal [recorded
    in [20]http://www.w3.org/2013/09/12-svg-minutes.html#action01]

    [End of minutes]


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Received on Thursday, 12 September 2013 22:06:15 UTC