- From: Nikos Andronikos <nikos.andronikos@cisra.canon.com.au>
- Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 08:05:38 +1000
- To: <www-svg@w3.org>
Minutes from this week's SVG WG telcon are below.
http://www.w3.org/2013/09/12-svg-minutes.html
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
12 Sep 2013
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JulSep/0091.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2013/09/12-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
+1.425.373.aaaa, [IPcaller], birtles, ed,
+1.612.789.aabb, heycam, nikos, TavAndro, Rich
Regrets
Chair
SV_MEETING_CHAIR
Scribe
nikos
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Merging Text chapter rewrite into SVG 2
2. [6]Connector syntax
3. [7]Planning Survey
4. [8]New Name for Paint Order Property
5. [9]Timeline for SVG 2
6. [10]TPAC
* [11]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 12 September 2013
<krit> heycam: Can not call in
<krit> heycam: just status update on Matrix
<krit> heycam: we (CSS WG) decided to prefix all new geometry
APIs with DOM
<krit> heycam: means Matrix would be DOMMatrix
<heycam> krit, ok. good thing I haven't organised the document
to be published yet. (sorry.)
<krit> heycam: I will update the spec today so that it is ready
for publication
<scribe> scribenick: nikos
Merging Text chapter rewrite into SVG 2
tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/publish/text.html
Tav: I've restructured this chapter under the premise that SVG
2 will define text in terms of CSS
... in such a way that SVG 1.1 text is still valid
... SVG 1.1 text is a special case
... everything defined in terms of a content area (CSS term)
... SVG 1.1 the content area is an infinite rect
... introduction now reflects that
... and text layout sections
... I'd like people to comment whether this is the right
direction
... and whether I should move my changes to the current ED
heycam: I'm in favour of this direction. It fits in well with
my implementation
... you should do the merge
... I wonder if a bit more work is required before we publish
next WD
Tav: I've marked lots of little issues
... which CSS levels do we reference, etc
... over the next few meetings it would be good to work through
those issues
heycam: seems like a good approach
Tav: it's a very big chapter
heycam: I'm keen to reduce stuff in this chapter
... a lot of the properties don't need to be defined in this
chapter
... we can refer to CSS
... mode, direction, unicode bidi, etc
Tav: I'd like a reader to be able to get an idea of what the
property is about
heycam: it's fine to mention them, just not full definitions
... in favour of lots of examples
Tav: I'll work on getting more in
... the way CSS defines direction is different than SVG 1.1
... it's kind of reversed
... various little inconsistencies to be worked out
heycam: I don't think we've discussed the individual
properties. We've just generally talked about referencing CSS
... I think it's a good idea to bring them up over future
meetings
ed: I think the way that bidi works in SVG is not consistent
across the various browsers so we don't risk breaking much if
we change how it works
... that's my experience anyway
heycam: bidi text should be pretty good in Firefox now
Tav: If no other comments, I'll merge it into the ED when I get
back to France
Connector syntax
[12]http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/CONNECTORS/index.xhtml
[12] http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/CONNECTORS/index.xhtml
Tav: I started on a connector proposal
... the proposal I have is fairly simple
... The main thing is the 'point' element
... we talked about this being standalone as well as for
connectors
... you define connectors between the points
... what I'd like to do is to define the point inside a
rectangle so I can use the bounding box of the rectangle to
place the point
... InkScape implementation currently relies on groups so
doesn't have this ability yet
... connector is just a straight line at the moment
... I think that's fine to start with
... start and end are specified by order not explicitly
... Next step is to have intermediate points
... This allows corners
... If you flip the connector over, the points will also flip
... sometimes you want to specify a path
... example 4 shows that
... the one major point I've found relates to using symbols
... it would be good to re-use symbols in a connected diagram
like this
... how to you specify a point on a symbol?
... I don't have a solution at the moment
... I have an example of what I'd like to achieve
... Can you guys think of a way?
... I envision a 'level 2' spec with additional routing
features
... a list of 'ports' which are points and the router decides
the best to connect to
heycam: In the past we've talked about how far to go with
routing. Possibly don't want too much automatic routing.
Tav: Another extension is to specify a radius that would
control curve of the connection
... There isn't that much difference between connectors and
paths
... you could do connectors with paths by specifying a
connector-type and overriding the d attribute
... ultimately I'd like to not have a connector element, but to
place the attributes on path
... enables fall back as well
heycam: maybe instead of having connector path attribute you
could change the path data syntax to reference points
... that would destroy the fall back mechanism though
Tav: you get some of that by using relative path elements
heycam: The other thing that we've talked about was having more
control regarding the automatic ports on a shape
... percentages work well for bounding box of rect, but not so
much for circle
Tav: for circles, you describe the points relative to the
transformed bounding box
heycam: Let's say you have two circles. You want the bottom
right most point of one circle connecting to the top most point
of the other
... You'd have to do some trig
Tav: one possible solution would be to define the point at the
centre and tell the connector it stops at the edge of the
object.
... I think it adds a level of complexity that will make
implementing difficult initially
heycam: I think it will be a common use case
Tav: We should think of a way to do it but I don't think it
should be in Level 1
heycam: Overall I think this looks like a good starting point
<TabAtkins> Forcing trig just to do one of the most common
things in level 1 isn't great...
Tav: I'd like to get comments from Doug
... The one major problem I have is how to reference a point in
a symbol
heycam: Maybe not using id within the symbol, using some
exported name, and having a separate syntax inside the point
... The only place this might have come up in CSS is web
components
... I think there's a way to have CSS connectors cross the
boundary and reference things in the shadow tree
... maybe a selector based mechanism could work?
Tav: I'm not in favour of adding selector type stuff to the
syntax
heycam: It would significantly complicate it
... Did you want to get comments from Doug before everyone
decides whether this should be an ED?
Tav: I'm not sure what the next step is. Doug has a connectors
draft also so want his input.
heycam: How about you ask Doug to give comments within the next
week to see if the general direction fits in with his draft
<heycam>
[13]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/connector/SVGConnector.html
[13] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/connector/SVGConnector.html
Tav: how do people feel about defining point in another object?
heycam: makes sense to me
Tav: I'll email Doug
<scribe> ACTION: Tav to discuss with Doug and look at merging
text from his connectors proposal in with Doug's proposal
[recorded in
[14]http://www.w3.org/2013/09/12-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3524 - Discuss with doug and look at
merging text from his connectors proposal in with doug's
proposal [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2013-09-19].
Planning Survey
<ed>
[15]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JulSe
p/0095.html
[15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JulSep/0095.html
heycam: Cam posted to the mailing list. Just a reminder to
please fill it out so that we can plan the coming year.
oops that was ed
New Name for Paint Order Property
<ed>
[16]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JulSe
p/0093.html
[16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JulSep/0093.html
heycam: last I heard, the CSS WG didn't have a strong opinion
on the name
... I don
... I don't think they out and out disliked it
Tav: CSS don't use the word paint. But the concept in SVG is
very ingrained
... I'm not sure another word would be better
... CSS WG are worried about connection between z-order and
paint-order
<heycam> [17]http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/zindex.html talks about
"Painting order", which includes painting parts of objects in a
particular order (background, borders, etc.)
[17] http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/zindex.html
Tav: I'm inclined to ask CSS WG for more details on why they
don't like 'paint-order'
heycam: CSS 2.1 defines a painting order which defines the
painting of the whole subtree
... but also defines order within an object
... so painting order is already being used there to mean what
I intended with 'paint-order'
... CSS WG might consider it confusing if their painting order
includes order of elements as well
Tav: I'd like to make sure they are clear that we are not
talking about z-order
... I'm not sure that was understood
heycam: none of the other suggested names have read as well as
paint-order
<TabAtkins> We definitely know it's not about z-order.
heycam: I wonder if there's a CSS term for the parts of an
element?
<heycam> like border, background, etc.?
ed: In general I think this could be applied to how CSS boxes
are painted, but I'm not sure it's that interesting
heycam: shape-part-order?
nikos: what about something like in-shape-order to
differentiate that it's within the element and not the scene
heycam: so how do we proceed?
... if we can't come up with a name that we all think is
better?
Tav: I think we should go back to the CSS group
ed: We'll let them know we haven't come up with improved
suggestions
heycam: Cameron to email the CSS WG regarding the naming of
paint-order
<scribe> ACTION: Cameron to email the CSS WG regarding the
naming of paint-order [recorded in
[18]http://www.w3.org/2013/09/12-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3525 - Email the css wg regarding the
naming of paint-order [on Cameron McCormack - due 2013-09-19].
Timeline for SVG 2
Tav: Is there anything major that hasn't gone in yet?
heycam: We should consult the wiki page
birtles: I still need to work on variable width stroke
<TabAtkins> Those "parts" are the boxes of the element.
<TabAtkins> Alternately: layers.
richardschwerdtfeger: The UI events spec is still changing
constantly and we are referencing it
... for mouse events, keyboard, etc
... we took out mutation events but we're waiting for it to
settle
... I don't know what their timeline is
... I'll email them
heycam: There's a couple of things that Doug wanted to do, like
Catmull Rom curve
Tav: I've not seen progress so I don't know if we have time
heycam: That's one I really wanted to see in
birtles: There's also the outstanding work of integrating
iframe and video
... Takagi-san has the action. I'll help him.
ed: Dirk is listed for video
... and for track
... but it's possible theres multiple actions for it
... I was wondering about the xlink namespace removal
... It's one of the bigger things that I'd like to see go in
heycam: That's on Chris
... my point in bringing up this topic is to propose that we
have some cut off date where if progress hasn't been made on a
feature, then we'll drop it
... a couple of months before release
... I'm proposing end of first quarter 2014
Tav: that should be plenty of time
... I would consider moving it up, since once the text is in
there is still lots of discussion,etc required
heycam: I would consider that
... there are a bunch of non-feature things to do - cleaning
up, referencing, etc
... that kind of work, I imagine, will be the last that we do
before LCWD
Tav: I'd propose end of the year
heycam: I'd suggested LCWD in Q1
... which would make the cut off in January or December
... May co-inside with our first F2F of 2014
... have all feature stuff in by then
... if it's early we can have stuff added then spend F2F
discussing issues
... then spend rest of quarter fixing up spec
... easiest to just say end of 2013 is feature cut off date
all: that's ok
RESOLUTION: End of 2013 will be cut off date for adding new
features to SVG 2 draft
TPAC
birtles: I'd like to settle on a day for the combined CSS day
so we can organise our travel
heycam: will either be Tuesday or Thursday or a combination of
the two
birtles: if it's not going to be Monday then that's fine
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Cameron to email the CSS WG regarding the naming
of paint-order [recorded in
[19]http://www.w3.org/2013/09/12-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Tav to discuss with Doug and look at merging text
from his connectors proposal in with Doug's proposal [recorded
in [20]http://www.w3.org/2013/09/12-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
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Received on Thursday, 12 September 2013 22:06:15 UTC