- From: Cameron McCormack <cam@mcc.id.au>
- Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 08:46:41 +1100
- To: SVG public list <www-svg@w3.org>
Minutes from today's SVG WG telcon are here:
http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-svg-minutes.html
and below as text.
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
01 Mar 2012
[2]Agenda
[2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0139.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
plinss, cabanier, [IPcaller], heycam, krit, ed, [Microsoft],
Tav, cyril, Doug_Schepers
Regrets
Chair
ed
Scribe
cabanier, shepazu
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]the animation sandwich model/presentation attributes
2. [6]testing requirements
3. [7]CSS3 Transforms WD does not cover SVG changes
* [8]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 01 March 2012
<cabanier> scribenick: cabanier
the animation sandwich model/presentation attributes
<krit>
[9]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Feb/att-0083/sand
wich-svg.svg
[9]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Feb/att-0083/sandwich-svg.svg
<ed>
[10]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Feb/0083.html
[10] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Feb/0083.html
dirk: the question: should SVG be on top of CSS animation or the
other way around
cameron: can you summarize?
dirk: in the model you see the CSS change the intrinsic style? How
do you apply SVG animation on top of that?
cabanier: Brian, Shane and I have been having talks about how to
progress animations
<ed>
[11]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Feb/0084.html
says that the CSS animations overrides in gecko
[11] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Feb/0084.html
cabanier: we were thinking that maybe there should be the ability to
specify the order that animations are applied
cameron: you mean that the order lets you mix svg and css animation?
cabanier: yes
... that's an idea we discussed
cameron: with the sandwich model you look at document order
dirk: yes. if the animations are applied on the same time, then
document is chosen
cameron: so is the proposal for both SVG and CSS
cabanier: yes
dirk: mozilla currently divides them
... the problem with specifiyng an order is that they run into
different time container
cabanier: yes, we're aware of that
... it's not a complete proposal at this point.
... just something we were thinking about this week
... we're hoping to have a proposal by the Hamburg F2F
dirk: I believe that will be too late.
... do you have something in the mean time that works?
cabanier: I think what you propose now is reasonable
cameron: I think I'm OK with that as well. So you can specify
behavior if you don't have the new keyword
... that way we're also not held up by the new css spec
dirk: In the mean time, shoud the CSS animation mention SMIL
cameron/cabanier: no
cameron: are the notes of the animation meeting online?
cabanier: yes, they are on the w3 server
meeting notes:
[12]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Web_Animations/Meetings
[12] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Web_Animations/Meetings
cabanier: overview:
[13]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Web_Animations
[13] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/fx/wiki/Web_Animations
ed: do we have a resolution
dirk: should we say that CSS animation don't mention SMIL?
cabanier: yes
... and your proposed order is reasonable
dirk: I believe it's OK to leave that unspecified at the moment
cameron: so how do other browsers than firefox do this?
dirk: we just landed a path to match WebKit with FireFox
cameron: and opera?
<heycam> ed,
[14]http://people.mozilla.org/~dholbert/tests/smil/compat_tests/tran
sitionsVsSMIL_v1.svg
[14]
http://people.mozilla.org/~dholbert/tests/smil/compat_tests/transitionsVsSMIL_v1.svg
ed: I don't know. Is there a test?
dirk: yes, Daniel Holbert supplied one
ed: tested in Opera 12, seems that SMIL wins over the css
transitions
cameron: It seems that we're in a situation that the public versions
are different
cabanier: if everyone converging, shouldn't that become the
standard?
cameron/ed/Dirk: that would be OK for me
cameron: to be sure: this is only when CSS and SMIL start at the
same time
... is it ignoring the start times of the SVG or the CSS?
... if there are CSS and SVG, SVG will always come second and CSS
first
... regardless of start time
<scribe> ACTION: cabanier to come up with a solution to specify
ordering of animations [recorded in
[15]http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3241 - Come up with a solution to specify
ordering of animations [on Rik Cabanier - due 2012-03-08].
testing requirements
<ed>
[16]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2/Testing_Requirements
[16] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2/Testing_Requirements
dirk: for SMIL animations, we need JavaScript
ed: I agree. I have an action to commit some examples of converted
SVG 1.1 animation tests using the js testing framework
... this is something we do internally
cameron: we set the current animation time and look at the current
values
... tav has an action on this
... is this easily doable or does it require a lot of work?
tav: currently it is set up to test for environments that don't have
javascript
... we like the test to have links so you can link to the spec (and
vice versa)
... (going over the test suite)
... we have limited tests for CSS
... you have tests that require pixel perfect result
... for certain tests, we don't require that (ie gradients)
cameron: last time we looked, the automation wasn't there
dirk: you want to have it cross browser
... can you use the canvas tag/
plinss: some people have looked into that
shepazu: hixie is looking into ways to draw svg paths directly into
canvas
... you could draw the same SVG and canvas using the same API
... for a vast majority of content
<krit>
[17]http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-
canvas-element.html
[17]
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html
<heycam> This is with drawImage
cameron: it works as long as you don't have external references
cabanier: I believe it's the same in webkit
dirk: I have to check that
cameron: automation would be quite beneficial
plinss: you could set it up so that you can say that a test must
matchs all references or any
... so you can have browser specific reference files
cameron: how are css animations tested?
plinss: we don't have any
ed: do you want to add more to the wiki page tav?
... for example, that the css testing framework documentation said
you can't use plain SVG?
tav: we can look at the script and see if you can use plain svg
plinss: that should not be a problem
ed: the metadata was supposed to be a HTML
plinss: the harnass itself doesn't really care where the data comes
from
tav: can you extract the metadata from the SVG itself
pllins: if it's XML, we open it and look HTML namespace head element
inside of it
plinsss: I parse the file and create the DOM and look for the head
tag and expect the metadata to be there
tav: right now it's all in the namespace "d"
<ed> here's an example:
[18]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/svg/animate-dom-01-f.s
vg
[18]
http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/svg/animate-dom-01-f.svg
plinss: if you use it consistently, it would be trivial to add to
the build system
tav: how would I find this?
plinss: there is no good documentation on how to set it up
<plinss> [19]http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/harness
[19] http://wiki.csswg.org/test/css2.1/harness
plinss: this is our wiki that has everything you need
<plinss> [20]http://hg.csswg.org/test
[20] http://hg.csswg.org/test
<plinss> [21]http://hg.csswg.org/test/file/tip/tools
[21] http://hg.csswg.org/test/file/tip/tools
<plinss> [22]http://hg.csswg.org/dev/w3ctestlib/
[22] http://hg.csswg.org/dev/w3ctestlib/
ed: what would you recommend, going with the html:head structure, or
keep and extend the existing svg test metadata?
plinss: whatever is convenient
... it would be easiest if the metadata itself is the same
<plinss> [23]http://wiki.csswg.org/test/format
[23] http://wiki.csswg.org/test/format
plinss: what you wrap it in is not relevant
... but it would be easiest if the data itself is similar
cameron: we should be able to do it
<plinss> [24]http://test.csswg.org/shepherd/
[24] http://test.csswg.org/shepherd/
plinss: it's like a bugzilla for your testsuite
cameron: pretty cool
plinss: it shows your revision history, who approved the tests,
flags tests as needing work, etc
... it's still in development but you can use it now
tav: where would the SVG test suite be located?
plinss: you set up your own repository and shepherd will refer to it
<heycam> there's an empty repo here:
[25]http://svgwg.org/hg/svg2-tests/
[25] http://svgwg.org/hg/svg2-tests/
ed: we already have a svg2-tests repository
<plinss> [26]http://w3c-test.org/framework/
[26] http://w3c-test.org/framework/
<RikCabanier> (discussion on using test repository)
<plinss> [27]http://hg.csswg.org/test
[27] http://hg.csswg.org/test
<RikCabanier> ed: I propose that we move to this structure
<RikCabanier> cameron: I agree
<RikCabanier> ACTION: cameron to create directories in the SVG2 test
repository [recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3242 - Create directories in the SVG2 test
repository [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-03-08].
<RikCabanier> plinss: within the approved directory, there's a data
and src directory
<RikCabanier> plinss: src has the test and data contains the spec
section manifest files
<RikCabanier> ACTION: tav to mirror css test metadata setup in SVG
and come up with a template for new tests [recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3243 - Mirror css test metadata setup in
SVG and come up with a template for new tests [on Tavmjong Bah - due
2012-03-08].
<krit> [30]http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-transforms/
[30] http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-transforms/
<krit> [31]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transforms/
[31] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transforms/
CSS3 Transforms WD does not cover SVG changes
<RikCabanier> dirk: since the published draft is wrong, I need to
ask everyone to approve a new working draft
<RikCabanier> cyril: I don't see a difference
<RikCabanier> dirk: look at chapter 7
<RikCabanier> cyril: o I see
<RikCabanier> cameron: what is the current thinking on adding the
SVG to the CSS spec?
<RikCabanier> cameron: are people happy to include it in the spec?
<RikCabanier> dirk: absolutely
<RikCabanier> dirk: there are concerns that it slows down, but I'm
committed to advancing it quickly
<RikCabanier> dirk: we can go to CR in May
<ed> [32]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transforms/#svg-transform
[32] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transforms/#svg-transform
<RikCabanier> ACTION: cameron to review section 7 in new CSS
transform spec [recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-svg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3244 - Review section 7 in new CSS
transform spec [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-03-08].
<RikCabanier> shepazu: sorry, CR in May seems arbitrary
<RikCabanier> dirk: the CSS working group will bring up issues in
the meeting
<RikCabanier> dirk: and if there are none, it will be accepted in
may
<RikCabanier> shepazu: when is last call supposed to be?
<cyril> especially when it says "The merge is in progress and the
specification is not yet ready for review."
<RikCabanier> plinss: that is what we want too. If we drop prefixes
early, we want to see proof that the implementations are identical
<shepazu> scribenick: shepazu
shepazu: I want to make sure that we aren't putting the cart before
the horse… dropping vendor prefixes should be done after there are
functional signs of stability and interoperability, like a full test
suite and implementation report, not an arbitrary point of progress
along the Rec track
plinss: yes, that's also one of our criteria… but we do want to go
to CR for the patent commitments
shepazu: ok, I agree with that
trackbot, end telcon
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: cabanier to come up with a solution to specify
ordering of animations [recorded in
[34]http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: cameron to create directories in the SVG2 test
repository [recorded in
[35]http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: cameron to review section 7 in new CSS transform spec
[recorded in
[36]http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-svg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: tav to mirror css test metadata setup in SVG and come
up with a template for new tests [recorded in
[37]http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 1 March 2012 21:47:19 UTC