- From: Cameron McCormack <cam@mcc.id.au>
- Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 09:38:35 +1200
- To: www-svg@w3.org
Minutes from today’s SVG WG telcon:
http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-svg-minutes.html
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
14 Jul 2011
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/0018.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
erik, vincent, cameron, doug, tav
Regrets
chris
Chair
SV_MEETING_CHAIR
Scribe
Cameron
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]API for Media Resources 1.0
2. [6]empty title elements
3. [7]Status of SVG 1.1 Second Edition publication
4. [8]Interest in SVG Parameters
5. [9]textPath method="stretch"
* [10]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 14 July 2011
<scribe> Scribe: Cameron
<scribe> ScribeNick: heycam
API for Media Resources 1.0
ED: spec requesting feedback from us
<ed>
[11]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Jul/0034.html
[11] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Jul/0034.html
ED: it's about different interfaces for getting information about
media resources
... a javascript api
VH: are there implementations of the api?
ED: good question, it's a last call working draft
VH: second last call
ED: is there interest in reviewing the spec?
VH: I think at least someone should take a look and report back to
us
... a while back we were trying to get progress events in svg2, so
it sounds related
... or is it for metadata?
ED: it seems to be more fore metadata
VH: not for the loading process?
ED: doesn't look like it, but I haven't done a length review of the
document
CM: I'd be curious to see what the HTMLWG thinks of it, given they
are probably mainly thinking of HTML video
<vhardy> [12]http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/#Implementa
[12] http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/#Implementa
ED: end of the review period is 7 August
VH: shall we put it on the F2F agenda and see if anyone's had a
chance to look at it before then?
... I've put it on the agenda
<scribe> ACTION: Erik to mail the group list asking for review of
the mediaont-api spec [recorded in
[13]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3064 - Mail the group list asking for
review of the mediaont-api spec [on Erik Dahlström - due
2011-07-21].
empty title elements
<ed>
[14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Jul/0004.html
[14] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Jul/0004.html
VH: someone pointed out the differences between SVG Tiny 1.2 and 1.1
... I think the argument I made was that <title> was informative,
and the fact that you could display titles as a tooltip was just a
way of dealing with it
... so having tooltip-specific behaviour on <title> didn't seem
right
... Olaf pointed out that 1.2T talked more about tooltips
DS: I think we need to have some standardised behaviour around
tooltips
... I don't care if it's <title> or not
... are you saying that we shouldn't have tooltips around <title>?
VH: we shouldn't assume that titles were exclusively for tooltips
DS: sure, I agree with that
ED: the 1.2T spec suggests to use role="tooltip" for title elements
that are supposed to be tooltips
<ed>
[15]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/struct.html#uiTitleDescBehavior
[15] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/struct.html#uiTitleDescBehavior
DS: it's a feature people expect
"The title attribute represents advisory information for the
element, such as would be appropriate for a tooltip."
(that's in the HTML spec)
DS: it seems the best would be to use a SHOULD to display it as a
tooltip
CM: I think for the issue that was brought up, it should just do the
same thing as in HTML if you have a descendent element with title=""
(empty string) on it
ISSUE: Resolve the <title> tooltip issue for SVG2
<trackbot> Created ISSUE-2414 - Resolve the <title> tooltip issue
for SVG2 ; please complete additional details at
[16]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2414/edit .
[16] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2414/edit
DS: I came up with an algorithm for determining the title of an
element: every element has a title. the title text comes from its
immediate child <title>, or its closest ancestor's.
... I think that's the only consistent one I can see being applied
... we could ask the public list to review the text from 1.1/1.2T,
get use cases and requirements from accessibility and other people
<scribe> ACTION: Doug to ask the public list and a11y people about
title/tooltips [recorded in
[17]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3065 - Ask the public list and a11y people
about title/tooltips [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-07-21].
ISSUE: Specify what an empty <title> element means in SVG2
<trackbot> Created ISSUE-2415 - Specify what an empty <title>
element means in SVG2 ; please complete additional details at
[18]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2415/edit .
[18] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2415/edit
<scribe> ACTION: Doug to make a proposal for ISSUE-2415, empty
<title> element [recorded in
[19]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3066 - Make a proposal for ISSUE-2415,
empty <title> element [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-07-21].
<scribe> ACTION: Doug to reply to Klaus on www-svg about empty
<title> [recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-svg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3067 - Reply to Klaus on www-svg about
empty <title> [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-07-21].
Status of SVG 1.1 Second Edition publication
ED: do we need to do anything there?
DS: Chris or I need to write up a Director's decision based on the
feedback
... did you guys see the feedback from Innovimax?
ED: yes
DS: have we resolved what to do about that?
CM: I don't think we've discussed it
[21]http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/svg11-2011/results
[21] http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/svg11-2011/results
ED: there's no RNG for 1.1, but there's nothing stopping us
publishing one later if we want
CM: I agree, there may be that experimental RNG on www.w3.org, but
we weren't intending to publish 1.1F2 with one
DS: yes, if we do publish one going forward we don't need it to be
linked from the spec
... plh agreed with me that these kinds of comments were made too
late; they should have been made in PR or LC
... we should say that the rng on www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/ is out of
date, and it would be better to wait for murata-san's updated rng
ED: he also comments about references
... we have discussed this previously and rejected them
DS: I know that in the past certain things had changed from CSS 2.0
to 2.1, so we didn't think it was appropriate to change the
reference
<ed>
[22]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Feb/0034.html
[22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Feb/0034.html
DS: now that 2.1 is a REC, there's nothing stopping us maturity-wise
<ed> [23]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/refs.html
[23] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/refs.html
ED: we do already link to CSS 2.1 from the references section
DS: he lists two or three references, what are those?
ED: SMIL 3.0, I think it's not so easy to reference that
... MathML 3.0, he wants an informative reference
DS: SVG 1.1 Second Edition only made certain changes, and it wasn't
evaluated entirely in terms of references
... we couldn't confidently change some of these references
ED: we could do the MathML one, it's informative
DS: yeah, so changing that one to MathML 3.0 would be OK
CM: so we reference both SMIL Animation (normative) and SMIL 3.0
(informative). what do we reference SMIL 3.0 for?
ED: just an informative note, I think
DS: I'll leave it to you Cameron to update any references you think
are safe, and keep me updated
<scribe> ACTION: Cameron to investigate reference updates per
Innovimax's comment [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-svg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3068 - Investigate reference updates per
Innovimax's comment [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-07-21].
ED: I made some tweaks to the test suite, reference image updates
... but I think it's in a good state for publication
CM: did you look any further into how to publish the test suite?
ED: no, and I'd like to verify that the test suite package is
generated correctly
<scribe> ACTION: Erik to look into the testsuite package
generation/publication [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-svg-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3069 - Look into the testsuite package
generation/publication [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-07-21].
CM: what is the timing of being able to publish?
DS: I think we should be able to publish next Thursday
Interest in SVG Parameters
DS: I never sent off my email about that
... I intend on responding to Andreas and others to tell them what
our plan is
... it was interesting that Andreas pointed out another
implementation out there, some GIS thing
... I'm scheduled to meet with an expert on URIs/HTTPs etc. to talk
about the syntax
... one of the problems with Params was that we never settled on a
URL syntax, you can't use a question mark since that would mean
resources aren't cached
... so I'll talk to him about better syntax for that
... there might be conflict between our syntax and the media
fragments
... (Yves Lafon)
... I'm going to try to have an updated ED for the F2F
... so is this meant to be an SVG2 feature? or a separate module? I
don't really care one way or the other.
CM: not sure
DS: we could leave it as a separate spec for now and consider
folding it into SVG2 later
... that way people can implement it now
textPath method="stretch"
ED: it's being proposed that for textPath method="stretch" you warp
the glyphs, Israel used the term "offset mapping"
... so making the glyphs rubbery and stretch them along the path
... it's not exactly what opera does at the moment; we don't stretch
it out fully like that
VH: but opera does some stretching?
ED: yes
(opera doesn't do an exact scaling of the glyphs, it stretches it
into a trapezoid or something)
<ed>
[26]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/text.html#TextPathElementMethodAttrib
ute
[26] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/text.html#TextPathElementMethodAttribute
VH: so he wants silverlight-like effects?
ED: not quite
... he made a couple of different examples
... they're pretty compelling
<ed> [27]http://owl3d.com/svg/tests/boundText/circle_text_ar6.svg
[27] http://owl3d.com/svg/tests/boundText/circle_text_ar6.svg
ED: Opera wouldn't behave like this
... if you take the "Z" character, it wouldn't be following the
inner circle
... it would be positioned on the mid line of the glyph, a straight
baseline
... and the top line of the character wouldn't follow the circle
either
TB: I was playing with some ligatures with that, it looks a bit ugly
... if you don't follow the curve
... if you have the "ffi", if all three parts of that are on a
straight line, it doesn't look good
VH: is he proposing a solution that explains exactly the processing
to do this?
ED: I think sort of, but it's not 100% clear in all parts
... there are some aspects of this proposal that aren't clear, like
how rotate="" would affect this
... I pointed out a few things, where e.g. if you have a very sharp
corner, the behaviour in such cases is not fully defined either
<ed>
[28]http://owl3d.com/svg/tests/boundText/corner_linejoin_round.svg
[28] http://owl3d.com/svg/tests/boundText/corner_linejoin_round.svg
ED: ^ there is an example of a sharp corner
DS: if we are going to change text path, maybe we might have an
attribute that changes modes of how textPath behaves
<ed> [29]http://owl3d.com/svg/tests/boundText/2curves.svg
[29] http://owl3d.com/svg/tests/boundText/2curves.svg
DS: we have the current backwards compat mode, and we could opt in
to this new functionality
ED: also being able to specify two curves to stretch between
... that's similar to the silverlight one I think
... so it's following the curve and not using straight lines for the
top/bottom of the glyphs
CM: it's a short distance between this and doing it for general
shapes
DS: we did talk about a "shapePath", where it treats individual
shapes as glyphs
VH: these documents are pregenerated, do we know how he generates
it?
<ed> [30]http://owl3d.com/svg/tests/boundText/corner_in_out.svg
(that's the non-bendy B)
[30] http://owl3d.com/svg/tests/boundText/corner_in_out.svg
CM: if he could furnish us with some algorithms that would be a good
way forward
VH: is he a Member?
CM: no, a public
VH: I would be concerned if he shared them and wasn't a member
DS: we do allow non-members to give IPR commitments
TB: it should be pretty easy to duplicate
<scribe> ACTION: Tav to experiment with glyph warping text path
stuff [recorded in
[31]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-svg-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3070 - Experiment with glyph warping text
path stuff [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2011-07-21].
TB: I think Inkscape already has something like this for a general
path
VH: is it just done with manipulating control points, or does it
need to subdivide curves?
TB: just control points
... we have some extensions
<vhardy> [32]http://owl3d.com/svg/tests/boundText/circle_text_B.svg
[32] http://owl3d.com/svg/tests/boundText/circle_text_B.svg
<vhardy> [33]http://owl3d.com/svg/tests/boundText/2curves_B.svg
[33] http://owl3d.com/svg/tests/boundText/2curves_B.svg
<tbah>
[34]http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/Paths-LivePathEffec
ts-EnvelopeDeformation.html
[34] http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/MANUAL/html/Paths-LivePathEffects-EnvelopeDeformation.html
(discussion about inkscape live path effects)
VH: did Israel have a concretre proposal, or was it more about
functionality?
ED: more functionality
... not sure if he wanted something like live path effects, or just
wanting the simple things to work
CM: how might we move forward with this, aside from saying "that's
cool"?
VH: for anything like this to go into the spec, we need a real
proposal
... either we do that or we ask him to do it
ED: it would nice to be able to apply this to any shape
... not just text, textPath
... so it'd be nice if we had something like live path effects in
SVG
VH: should we have something like a rubber band effect? fairly
generic, something that would apply to text or shapes
ED: I think one of the use cases mentioned there was railroad
tracks, labels on streets, etc.
CM: what I want to know is how difficult it is to specify and
compute
... it's clearly a high value effect, so if we can do it without too
much difficulty, I think we should
VH: we respond saying we could put it in the SVG2 requirements
document, ask him to join the group help specify it
ED: yes, if he has algorithms spec text to contribute
... writing up use cases for the path effects would be nice to have
on the wiki
VH: we have a page for the requirements document, for 2.0?
CM: I think we never came to a decision on scope for 2.0
... there was a discussion on the list
... a month or two back
DS: I'd said to wait for the Community group process to be up and
running
... and use that to help scope the 2.0 work
... the infrastructure won't be there, though
... are we going to get people to mail to the list? it's work to
collect that.
VH: traditionally you would have a requirements document, an editor
for that document
... we could do it on the wiki
... and then multiple people could collect things from the list to
the wiki
CM: I think we need a page like that for ourselves, at least,
whether or not we use it for collecting requirements from the public
VH: we can start a wiki page, that's a zero cost thing, make this
the first entry
... during the meeting we could have someone put things on the page
as we decide on certain features going in there
DS: but that's only stuff that we talk about, not from the public
VH: we could do it like today. we discuss things that come up on the
list, and during the meeting we talk about adding it to the req
document.
DS: we could split it into high priority items, medium, low,
suggested
<vhardy>
[35]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements
[35] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Cameron to investigate reference updates per
Innovimax's comment [recorded in
[36]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-svg-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Doug to ask the public list and a11y people about
title/tooltips [recorded in
[37]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Doug to make a proposal for ISSUE-2415, empty <title>
element [recorded in
[38]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Doug to reply to Klaus on www-svg about empty <title>
[recorded in
[39]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-svg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Erik to look into the testsuite package
generation/publication [recorded in
[40]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-svg-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Erik to mail the group list asking for review of the
mediaont-api spec [recorded in
[41]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Tav to experiment with glyph warping text path stuff
[recorded in
[42]http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-svg-minutes.html#action07]
[End of minutes]
--
Cameron McCormack ≝ http://mcc.id.au/
Received on Thursday, 14 July 2011 21:39:15 UTC