- From: Anthony Grasso <anthony.grasso@cisra.canon.com.au>
- Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 18:16:19 +1000
- To: www-svg@w3.org
http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-svg-minutes.html
---
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
SVG Working Group Teleconference
08 Jul 2009
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JulSep/0007.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-svg-irc
Attendees
Present
ED, CM, AG, DS, JW
Regrets
Chair
Cameron
Scribe
anthony
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]ISSUE-2284
2. [6]ISSUE-2285
3. [7]ISSUE-2286
4. [8]Test suite licence
5. [9]Initial value of Colour interpolation filters
6. [10]animateTransform with matrix-decomposed like CSS
* [11]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 08 July 2009
ISSUE-2284
ISSUE-2284?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2284 -- Clarify how the primitive subregion affects
the filter input and outputs for all filter primitives -- RAISED
<trackbot> [12]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2284
[12] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2284
ED: The first one here is basically a question about how filter
primitive subregions should effect the input and outputs
... looked at some demos
... seems that Mozilla is applying the primitive subregions to Opera
<jwatt> what's my RRSAgent number?
<jwatt> sorry to be late, thought it was Tuesday
<jwatt> ah, ok
ED: would like to clarify how they are applied
... in which order
... in the example in the issue here
<ed> <feOffset in="SourceGraphic" x="50" y="50" width="200"
height="200" dx="50" dy="50"/>
ED: If you clip to the filter subregion first then apply the offset
... it would have a different result to doing the operations in the
revers order
... spec is not clear on the order they are suppose to be applied
... Mozilla appears to be applying the offset first then clipping
... I think that is ok
... If you go a bit further
... feDisplacementMap is a bit more complex
<jwatt> yeah
ED: when the input images are different size
... when you have primitive subregion it's a bit more tricky
... in which coordinates systems the displacement is suppose to
occur in
CM: Which are the images of different sizes?
... the displacement map size and the input image?
ED: Yes
... whether or not your suppose to read any type of data outside the
primitive subregion for example
CM: Do you know which would make sense for displacementMap?
ED: I think in some cases it would be nice to clip right away
... but I can see why you'd want to clip last
... with feOffset you'd want to clip last
CM: How currently could you get that clipping before hand if you
wanted to?
ED: That's a good question. I mean you could apply clipping outside
the filter then pass it in
... but couldn't clip within the filter chain
CM: What about just clip some region and not do any other filter
operations and feed that back in.
... If you want to clip before hand you may want another filter clip
primitive if you wanted to clip before filtering is applied
DS: What's the current behaviour of authoring tools and browsers
ED: Opera clips before currently
... I think there are cases where it makes more sense to clip the
output
DS: Are we going to be at odds with authoring tools then?
... I'm concerned with what Inskape and Illustrator do
... I think we have a better chance of getting Inkscape changed if
need be
ED: I think Opera will do what Batik is doing
CM: Do you know if there are any tests in the test suite that test
clipping order?
ED: No not really
... currently making some
CM: So have you decided which order it should be done?
ED: Still up for discussion
<jwatt> JW: we could also add a feClip to clip a primitive output to
an arbitrary clip path
<ed>
[13]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/svg/filters-offset-02-
b.svg
[13] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/svg/filters-offset-02-b.svg
ED: This would be a test
... I'm not sure it's fully correct
... this fails in Opera 10
... and FireFox it appears to give some red in the first case
... Jwatt if you want to take a shot at analysing and reviewing the
test that would be great
<ed> [14]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/docs/SVGTestSuite-howto.html
[14] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/docs/SVGTestSuite-howto.html
<scribe> ACTION: Jonathan to Review the filters-offset-02-b.svg test
[recorded in
[15]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2632 - Review the filters-offset-02-b.svg
test [on Jonathan Watt - due 2009-07-15].
<scribe> ACTION: Erik to Create test cases that test filter regions
for a range of different filter primitives [recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2633 - Create test cases that test filter
regions for a range of different filter primitives [on Erik
Dahlström - due 2009-07-15].
CM: So just going back to what Jwatt was saying before
... do we define that clipPath property doesn't apply to filter
elements?
ED: I think so. Filter primitive elements are not graphics elements
... so they don't apply.
... clipPath only applies to graphic and container elements
CM: I wouldn't mind making it apply
... rather than introducing a new primitive
DS: We couldn't really do that in 1.1
ED: Probably not. Could do it in the filters module though
... I guess we could define it that way though
CM: That would make it so we wouldn't have to insert these elements
just to get clipping to apply
... to a filter
ISSUE-2285
ISSUE-2285?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2285 -- Resolving @primitiveUnits and z attribute
discrepancies -- RAISED
<trackbot> [17]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2285
[17] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2285
ED: There are z attributes on feSpotLight and fePointLight
... and both say they are dependent on the value of primitive units
... we don't really define any coordinate system for the z-axis
... I was wondering if the formula in the issue makes that much
sense
... or if we should make it not depend on the primitive units
CM: What's the coordinate system set up, or doesn't it matter?
<ed> [18]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/filters.html#feSpotLight
[18] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/filters.html#feSpotLight
ED: I think it doesn't really matter, just positive or negative
CM: The Z points get put into the equations at some point
... so it doesn't really matter?
ED: The points at Z are bit strange because it says at one point it
depends on primitive units and in another
... place it says it doesn't
CM: So you're pointing out the the points in Z don't depend on
primitive units?
ED: Not sure if that makes sense
... don't know why it would be good to have that square root
equation
CM: Probably you're going to pick a Z to get particular brightness
ED: What's your suggested solution?
... unless there's some really good reason to have primitive units
apply to this
... then they could be removed
... or the option is to correct the points at Z for feSpotLight
... to me it's a really arbitrary choice
... it's smaller change to add primitive units for Z
CM: If it's not in the primitive units coordinate system what's it
in?
ED: User Space
CM: I guess the X or Y thing needs to be fixed up
... regardless
ED: I did implement this recently and made the choice of doing the
squareroot calculation
CM: It has to be in some coordinate system, so I guess using that
equation seems reasonable
... to resolve the Z axis
... 1 unit along the Z axis is equal to equation
... and add the reference to primitive units to the points at Z as
well
ED: The squareroot equation is only applied to when you have
primitive units set to ObjectBoundingBox
CM: Maybe it's not reasonable then
... because you're using the are to get a single dimensional value
... what would be a good thing to do?
... average of X and Y?
... the only other alternative is to allow people to explicitly set
the coordinate system
ED: Could be difficult to do
CM: Did you want to test different user agents?
<ed>
[19]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/svg/filters-light-01-f
.svg
[19] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/svg/filters-light-01-f.svg
ED: Don't know if that one is doing anything with primitive units
... could probably convert it to test the units
... shouldn't be too difficult
CM: In this test the size of the X and Y coordinate systems are the
same?
AG: Doesn't sound like it would effect people greatly
... probably worth going for a simple solution
ED: Average of X and Y or squareroot equation
... I will make some test cases and suggest some wording to appear
in the spec
<scribe> ACTION: Erik to Create filter tests that test the Z units
for feSpotLight and fePointLight and create some wording to address
ISSUE-2285 [recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2634 - Create filter tests that test the Z
units for feSpotLight and fePointLight and create some wording to
address ISSUE-2285 [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-07-15].
ISSUE-2286
ISSUE-2286?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2286 -- Resolving relative values in
@kernelUnitLength (number-optional-number) -- RAISED
<trackbot> [21]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2286
[21] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2286
ED: There are a couple of attributes that use the optional number
... kernal unit length in filters
... how do you resolve the primitive units
... you have to expand the value to two values
... before running the filter chain
... given the choice of the two options in the issue
... I'd say expand the values first
... and then calculate the primitive unit scaling
CM: I think that makes more sense
... Filter elements are the only one that use optional numbers?
ED: There are a couple of places, but its similar for units
CM: Do you know if we have tests?
ED: We don't at the moment but I can provide some
<scribe> ACTION: Erik to Add wording to both 1.1 2nd and the filters
module that clarifies the usage of optional numbers for kernal unit
length [recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-svg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2635 - Add wording to both 1.1 2nd and the
filters module that clarifies the usage of optional numbers for
kernal unit length [on Erik Dahlström - due 2009-07-15].
Test suite licence
<heycam> ACTION-2623?
<trackbot> ACTION-2623 -- Erik Dahlström to convert the test suites
to use the 3-clause bsd licence -- due 2009-06-19 -- OPEN
<trackbot> [23]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2623
[23] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2623
ED: Just wondering if the conversion script has been run
AG: All done and checked in
ED: Wondering if I should change the copyright part in each test?
... if I should change it what should I change it to
CM: I guess it would be better to have it say something
... with the licence URL
ED: Do you need to link each file to the licence URL?
CM: Need to check if it's just one file at the top or in each
individual file
<ed>
[24]http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2008/04-testsuite-copyright.h
tml
[24] http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/2008/04-testsuite-copyright.html
DS: I'll find out
... or if someone can summarise the issue
... Rigo is going on vacation very soon, so should be done right
away
Initial value of Colour interpolation filters
<heycam>
[25]http://www.w3.org/mid/20090706235532.GB3942@arc.mcc.id.au
[25] http://www.w3.org/mid/20090706235532.GB3942@arc.mcc.id.au
CM: Hans Schmucker wrote these perspective examples using
color-interpolation-filters
... he was saying the initial value should be changed
ED: It's probably easier if the initial value was sRGB from the
start
CM: Do you know of any other place where you'd want to have
linearRGB as the default?
... gradients is something I can think of
AG: Would like to find out from Chris why this is done
DS: We should hold off on this issue
animateTransform with matrix-decomposed like CSS
ISSUE-2279?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2279 -- animateTransform with matrix-decomposed
like CSS -- RAISED
<trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2279
[26] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2279
CM: picked this as one of the issues raised on SVG 2
... that we hadn't discussed yet
... in CSS Animations when you animate a transform property
... it does a decomposition of the transform
... and transforms between the components
... our animate transform for non-additive transforms will animate
the specific items in the transform attribute
... there is no way to do this automatic composition in a particular
order
... the issue is whether want to have this kind of animation or not
ED: It might be
... You seem to be asking if we could make a new type of transform
as the default
... and that's not really possible
... if give it an unsupported value
... as long as the type is ignored by the tiny user agents then
that's fine
... it is possible
... I take it back
CM: Would this work for if you're animating between items where they
don't match up exactly
... so does anyone remember what SVG it says about this?
... You have to give animateTransform a type
... could have animateTrasform type list
... and give it a list of transforms
<heycam> [27]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-2d-transforms/#animation
[27] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-2d-transforms/#animation
[28]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/031
0.html
[28] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JanMar/0310.html
CM: Would certainly make it easier to unify the specs
... sounds like it's the stage where someone could propose some text
to SVG 2
<scribe> ACTION: Cameron to Add animateTransformType="list" with
behaviour that matches CSS animation [recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-svg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-2636 - Add animateTransformType="list"
with behaviour that matches CSS animation [on Cameron McCormack -
due 2009-07-15].
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Cameron to Add animateTransformType="list" with
behaviour that matches CSS animation [recorded in
[30]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-svg-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Erik to Add wording to both 1.1 2nd and the filters
module that clarifies the usage of optional numbers for kernal unit
length [recorded in
[31]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-svg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Erik to Create filter tests that test the Z units for
feSpotLight and fePointLight and create some wording to address
ISSUE-2285 [recorded in
[32]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Erik to Create test cases that test filter regions for
a range of different filter primitives [recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Jonathan to Review the filters-offset-02-b.svg test
[recorded in
[34]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [35]scribe.perl version 1.135
([36]CVS log)
$Date: 2009/07/08 08:05:32 $
_________________________________________________________
[35] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[36] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Scribe.perl diagnostic output
[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20
Check for newer version at [37]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002
/scribe/
[37] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
Succeeded: s/ing/in/
Succeeded: s/bright ness/brightness/
No ScribeNick specified. Guessing ScribeNick: anthony
Inferring Scribes: anthony
Present: ED CM AG DS JW
Agenda: [38]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JulSe
p/0007.html
Found Date: 08 Jul 2009
Guessing minutes URL: [39]http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: cameron erik jonathan
[38] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2009JulSep/0007.html
[39] http://www.w3.org/2009/07/08-svg-minutes.html
End of [40]scribe.perl diagnostic output]
[40] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
Received on Wednesday, 8 July 2009 08:17:12 UTC