- From: Dael Jackson <daelcss@gmail.com>
- Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2023 19:51:26 -0400
- To: www-style@w3.org
========================================= These are the official CSSWG minutes. Unless you're correcting the minutes, Please respond by starting a new thread with an appropriate subject line. ========================================= TPAC ---- - The group would like to do a joint meeting with WHATWG at TPAC. Counter Styles -------------- - After last week's resolution for issue #8636 (Should "Ready-made Counter Styles" be supported by UA?) there were additional concerns raised in Github about if the anchoring document is the appropriate reference. The group discussed further and decided to keep the resolution as is for now since it is better than the current state even if it's not perfect. - RESOLVED: Accept edits from the issue (Issue #8870: Korean counter styles fallback) - RESOLVED: Accept edits (Issue #8186: Setting `CSSCounterStyleRule.name` should ignore symbolic counter styles) - There was interest in solving for issue #7959 (Support automatically localized counters), but some concerns that with the hundreds of languages this would cause lots of problems as well. A more detailed proposal will be created to see if the concerns can be addressed. - Issue #8596 (System for cjk-earthly-branch and cjk-heavenly-stem) is due to outdated tests and doesn't need a fix. - RESOLVED: Change fallback for cjk-earthly-branch and cjk-heavenly-stem to cjk-decimal instead of decimal (Issue #8975: Fallback for cjk-earthly-branch and cjk-heavenly-stem) - RESOLVED: Republish CR [of Counter Styles] ===== FULL MEETING MINUTES ====== Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2023Jun/0004.html Present: Rachel Andrew Tab Atkins Rossen Atanassov David Baron Emilio Cobos Álvarez Yehonatan Daniv Elika Etemad Robert Flack Daniel Holbert Richard Ishida Jonathan Kew ChangSeok Oh Florian Rivoal Vitor Roriz Jen Simmons Miriam Suzanne Bramus Van Damme Chair: miriam Scribe: emilio TPAC ==== Joint tpac session with whatwg ------------------------------ TabAtkins: They would like to do a joint session for things that cross over html TabAtkins: UA CSS, position, ... TabAtkins: Is there interest in that? <fantasai> wfm Rossen: Why shouldn't we? We work on pretty close stuff <florian> +1 to give it a go TabAtkins: Topics would include declarative shadow dom, reorder API, [missed] miriam: Also importing into layer with <link> too? <bramus> Here’s the link to that issue Miriam mentioned, @TabAtkins: https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/7540 TabAtkins: sure, it's a gdoc now but should be a public issue soon, like next week Counter Styles ============== Should "Ready-made Counter Styles" be supported by UA? ------------------------------------------------------ github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/8636 miriam: Given the new comments, left there in case we want to revisit TabAtkins: We agreed last week to change the ready-made counter-style doc into a registry TabAtkins: and require must level support TabAtkins: r12a commented and they want to make sure that people that want minor tweaks can copy and paste TabAtkins: Counter-argument from myles and jensimmons is that most people can do that with the UA sheet and most people don't know that document or the spec exists TabAtkins: I agree with them, given how counter-styles work we don't restrict authors in any way r12a: Don't want to repeat the thread r12a: If myles and jensimmons think we can keep up with all the changes and are prepared for the other stuff that would be necessary r12a: getting stuff into the counter-styles spec or the registry is the easy part r12a: We also have to have tests and check that the stuff is supported and which ones are supported by which browser and so on and change browsers to implement as needed r12a: If they feel comfortable that it can be done then that's fine r12a: The thing about this doc is that it was designed to be very flexible so that we could change it easily r12a: it was never intended to be an exhaustive resource r12a: having the registry makes it a lot more formal r12a: I don't have experience maintaining/running one r12a: but if it makes it more formal we kinda have an additional problem which is what counter styles / languages do we want to support r12a: There are 7k languages in the world r12a: so those worry me a bit r12a: if other people think there are no major issues and that can be handled then that's great TabAtkins: That doc was extracted from the spec TabAtkins: the intent was to always making it required TabAtkins: it was removed because browsers didn't want at the time to carry a couple hundred of styles TabAtkins: as we need to adopt more we can continue to support new communities and languages TabAtkins: shouldn't make perfect the enemy of good and we can make good for a bunch of people florian: I think the question is more about whether browsers should ship it, not about registry florian: registry we can worry about separately jensimmons: I appreciate the perspective from r12a and your context. Maybe this doc has been pretty good but not perfect guidance jensimmons: To go from that to putting it in browsers that might be a different story, maybe it's a bit more intimidating jensimmons: I do feel like that phrase (don't let the perfect be the enemy of good) jensimmons: I'd like browsers shipping more of these by default jensimmons: I also think this could create a bit more attention about this jensimmons: and I think we would be in a better place than now <TabAtkins> I also suspect that testing all these is best done by auto generation - throw a parser at it, create a standard set of tests out of it. That way we can (a) actually test the ones that exist and (b) keep up with updates easily <emilio> +1 TabAtkins, was thinking the same florian: I think it'd be good to ship more than what we're shipping now, but I wonder how many of these are known to be good enough? florian: If we're outfashioned by a decade that's not concerning, but maybe some are plain wrong florian: specially some of the rarer languages florian: on one hand it is great to get more languages florian: Do we have any way of knowing which counters are known good, which ones need tweaking, and which one are a first try but not known good? TabAtkins: We'd still recommend people use these I'm not sure that'd be worse florian: When we do that people do it deliberately florian: but that takes less review to give it a go TabAtkins: And when we find errors, which we probably will more often if it's in browsers TabAtkins: updating is a copy/paste operation TabAtkins: so it's trivial r12a: We tried to make them as accurate as we can but there've been changes to popular languages r12a: like Hebrew / Greek r12a: also name changes e.g. Serbian recently r12a: we've made a bunch of changes to separators r12a: can't answer to how many are good or bad, we try that all of them are ok plinss: Also languages change plinss: so we'd need to update in the future r12a: Most of the newer styles are defined by you, maybe with some tweaks from the document, but it wouldn't change underneath r12a: if we decided that the best separator for ?? was this separator or other people's list would change r12a: currently you copy it and it stays the same until we decide plinss: I don't see it as precluding that, you can always copy it if you care about it fantasai: From a compat perspective there are some changes, for separator changes it's aesthetic and it probably doesn't have much impact fantasai: number changes can be more problematic, especially if there are cross-references to it; but then, if there are manual cross-references, the author is more likely to notice if there's an actual error and switch the style fantasai: I think we're fine with these having minor changes fantasai: if we're not fine with those to exist in documents we should wait until the counter styles are more stable before baking them in <r12a> I take the point that if things change in a way that the author doesn't like then they can still change it for themselves using the @counter-style approach jensimmons: I think there are some interesting points made here, might be helpful to go back to the issue TabAtkins: yeah if there are no major objections to the resolution we should continue no change jfkthame: This is a bit parallel to a recent change in CLDR which affected date formatting in some languages jfkthame: it caused a fair amount of compat pain jfkthame: I could see that happening around this jfkthame: sites are sometimes fragile to this stuff r12a: If something changes about the UA the author can still reverse it manually r12a: People brought up that not many people knew about it, but it'd be useful to point to it from mdn miriam: Let's take it back to the issue then Korean counter styles fallback ------------------------------ github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/8870 TabAtkins: Real quick rubber-stamp. Several years back we agreed that Korean falls back to cjk decimal but I did it wrong TabAtkins: and accidentally default to decimal now RESOLVED: Accept edits from the issue Setting `CSSCounterStyleRule.name` should ignore symbolic counter styles --------------------------------------------------------- github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/8186 TabAtkins: Again obvious bug-fix, I had two places which reference the special counter-styles TabAktins: didn't keep them in sync TabAktins: so cssom had a shorter version of the list TabAktins: I've made the list a defined term and reference in both places TabAktins: only needs sign-off TabAktins: also impls do this correctly RESOLVED: Accept edits Support automatically localized counters ---------------------------------------- github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7959 TabAtkins: r12a do you think that this is more of a topic to be discussed or something to be introduced? r12a: We could discuss the concept, my take was similar to the ready-made counter-styles r12a: I'd think it'd be something that authors would define rather than something built-in r12a: would you like to introduce this? <r12a> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7959#issuecomment-1592610379 TabAtkins: Somebody filed it requesting that for a few different categories we have an automatically-internationalized version TabAtkins: e.g., `digits` would be `decimal` for english, french... but map to something else for other languages TabAtkins: Same for letters which could map to hiragana in japanese TabAtkins: Before we accepted moving counter styles into the registry this was a lot harder to do TabAtkins: r12a proposed a new at-rule mapping lang to digits TabAtkins: Does this sound worth pursuing r12a: The registry doesn't really need to enter in r12a: Needs to work with author styles r12a: Just a clarification <TabAtkins> My thought was just that, since we'd be supporting a ton of these, we'd also have a UA stylesheet registry with a bunch assigned. Authors would still be able to extend/ override it. jensimmons: I really like this idea jensimmons: so many languages have translations jensimmons: so even if they are not published in different languages jensimmons: I'd love for it to be in some ua default jensimmons: but if it can't be it'd probably end up in some kind of reset/framework sheet <TabAtkins> (I'm just gonna say that this was noted as actually being helpful for Wikipedia; they currently manually set a bunch of counter styles for the different translations) <fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7959#issuecomment-1592298287 fantasai: There's some complications here fantasai: see linked comment fantasai: (a) you don't always want to translate the counter style, e.g. western digits might be used in other languages fantasai: (b) some languages have multiple styles which might be designer-preference or so fantasai: so I'm skeptic of adding something built-in fantasai: it'd be relatively straight-forward to do this using `:lang()` fantasai: what we don't have is a way to set a default counter-style for the counters function fantasai: if we have that e.g. via a `counter-style` property then it'd be really easy to make this mapping in the stylesheet <TabAtkins> "relatively straightforward" is still hundreds of selectors, fwiw <TabAtkins> and there are two types at least - numeric and writing - so a default counter() style won't satisfy it florian: I'm nervous, I really like the vision of the international way, but this makes me nervous because it heightens the worry of the previous issue florian: if you copy and paste it you check they're right, if you turn them on you likely at least checked florian: it increases the chances of a wrong counter style appearing in the page if you need to do neither florian: other concern is getting the mapping wrong florian: e.g., Japanese might not want to automatically switch to hiragana, I don't think it should be default, that would be jarring florian: if we were doing a couple or ten languages then we can probably figure it out florian: but if we want hundreds, how often would we get it wrong in a way that's worse TabAtkins: if this is just a matter of UA rule then it is fixable TabAtkins: as we discover that they're wrong we can just get them fixed TabAtkins: as the way it'd be designed you could override any of the mappings <TabAtkins> I'm happy to separate the "define the at-rule" part from the "and then put a default version of it into the UA stylesheet" r12a: What florian and fantasai were worried about is if this is baked into the browser r12a: proposal so far is to make it an author controlled rule for now r12a: I think that should be less problematic florian: What I'm about to say depends on whether this is auto-turned-on or not florian: do authors need to opt in? TabAtkins: Proposal is to define some new at-rule to define mapping from "generic family" to concrete style TabAtkins: then there's the question of "should we have a default in the UA sheet" florian: The latter makes me very nervous florian: e.g., English is a roman-alphabet language, so suppose someone thought that it would be appropriate to use roman numerals, and then shipped it out across the Web. That would be very disruptive <fantasai> +1 florian florian: sure, we could fix it--and for English it would happen quickly--but for a less common language, it could take a long time to bubble up florian: and in English we'd notice fairly easily florian: but maybe not for smaller languages TabAtkins: I don't think we'd auto-apply it to ol TabAtkins: but if auto-applying the mapping is controversial let's discuss that separately fantasai: I think we need a more specific proposal TabAtkins: Assuming there's no objections I think we should pursue this idea [more discussion about auto-applying vs not] jensimmons: You wouldn't be declaring the whole counter styles, but you'd define the mapping to language and you'd have to use it in your list-style florian: As long as we don't auto apply <ol> in numeric types florian: I'm fine <TabAtkins> `@generic-counter-style digits { en-US: decimal; ...}`rather than `ol:lang(en-US) { list-style-type: decimal; } ...` jensimmons: Instead authors would need to opt-in into this generic-digits fantasai: Two thoughts. How much of this could be done using our existing mechanism using lang selectors with a `counter-style` property fantasai: Other question is, even with a new opt-in keyword for this and deployed that what I'd expect to see is that a lot of people that are authoring pages would use it and then get wrongly translated things in other languages TabAtkins: Let's push that topic out TabAtkins: not discussing applying anything automatically fantasai: Not talking about that, just about any thing in the UA sheet fantasai: if only for authors, do we need a new mechanism, or can we use :lang() TabAtkins: Let's stop discussing the second point. Can authors do this today? yes TabAtkins: see example above TabAtkins: This would be essentially just sugar over that TabAtkins: Possibly a bit more efficient for browsers (less selectors?) TabAtkins: but yeah it'd essentially be just sugar over selectors r12a: I don't think that's quite right r12a: in the labeled-digits example you can just use in the stylesheet to use digits r12a: so I think it's a little extra TabAtkins: No you can always just apply the language selectors you want yourself TabAtkins: nothing fundamentally new or magical about it <r12a> generic-counter-style: "digits" { <r12a> 'ar':'arabic-indic', <r12a> 'bn':'bengali', <r12a> 'my':'myanmar', <r12a> 'az-arab':'arabic-indic', <r12a> 'suz':'my-own-sunuwar-style', <r12a> .... } miriam: seems like back to the issue for the full proposal System for cjk-earthly-branch and cjk-heavenly-stem --------------------------------------------------- github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/8596 vitorroriz: Some years ago the spec changed alphabetic to fixed vitorroriz: so just wanted to make sure it's fixed indeed TabAtkins: Yeah tests were just wrong vitorroriz: I fixed them TabAtkins: Great, nothing on the spec needs change Fallback for cjk-earthly-branch and cjk-heavenly-stem ----------------------------------------------------- github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/8975 fantasai: Seems reasonable, we should make the change and republish <TabAtkins> seems reasonable to me too miriam: Objections, anyone need more context? emilio: Would like someone familiar with cjk to look at it, but otherwise seems fine TabAtkins: All fall back to cjk-decimal because of full-width, same applies to these <fantasai> +1 TabAtkins RESOLVED: Change fallback for cjk-earthly-branch and cjk-heavenly-stem to cjk-decimal instead of decimal RESOLVED: Republish CR
Received on Wednesday, 21 June 2023 23:52:07 UTC