- From: Dael Jackson <daelcss@gmail.com>
- Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 19:05:12 -0400
- To: www-style@w3.org
========================================= These are the official CSSWG minutes. Unless you're correcting the minutes, Please respond by starting a new thread with an appropriate subject line. ========================================= F2F Agenda Items ---------------- - There are currently only a few items tagged for F2F discussion. Unless more items are added soon only one day will be set aside for the virtual F2F. W3C Website ----------- - The W3C is planning to update their website. Anyone interested is encouraged to participate on the wiki: https://www.w3.org/wiki/2020_website_redesign CSS Values ---------- - RESOLVED: Properties that accept quirky lengths accept number token which is converted at parse to pixels (Issue #4874: Quirky lengths and math expressions) - RESOLVED: This resolution [above] does not apply to any quirks inside of calc (Issue #4874) - RESOLVED: Encourage SVG to follow this approach (Issue #4874) CSS Text 3 ---------- - RESOLVED: Let editors choose the behavior and mark this at-risk (Issue #4893: Ogham Space Mark needs to disappear at the end of a line) - RESOLVED: Publish new WD of css-text-3 CSS 2 ----- - It may be possible to convert CSS 2 to use bikeshed. Anyone interested is asked to review the github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2220#issuecomment-599873522 CSS Ruby -------- - RESOLVED: Empty ruby containers are sized as if they have empty things in them (Issue #4631: Size and position of empty ruby level containers) - RESOLVED: Margins, borders and padding do not apply to ruby base or ruby annotation containers (Issue #4937: Be more specific about the box model of base/annotation container boxes) CSS Color & CSS Color Adjust ---------------------------- - RESOLVED: Add mark, marktext, and buttonborder colors to system colors (Issue #4924: We should add sufficient system colors to fully implement the HTML UA stylesheet) ===== FULL MINUTES BELOW ====== Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2020Apr/0012.html Present: Rossen Atanassov Tab Atkins David Baron Amelia Bellamy-Royds Oriol Brufau Dave Cramer Elika Etemad Simon Fraser Megan Gardner Dael Jackson Brian Kardell Peter Linss Stanton Marcum Myles Maxfield Nigel Megitt Anton Prowse Florian Rivoal Cassondra Roberts Devin Rousso Jen Simmons Alan Stearns Miriam Suzanne Regrets: Rachel Andrew Christian Biesinger Scribe: dael F2F Agenda Items ================ astearns: We need more tags on issues. astearns: When I last checked we had 3 which is not enough for a long meeting astearns: At most we will have one long meeting at the end of the month so we have something marked so people can put agenda items on last minute astearns: Unless there's more tags soon I can't justify setting up more than one long meeting astearns: Please come up with topics and we can schedule more. AmeliaBR: Decision on a themed meeting or anything CSS is in scope? astearns: Anything in scope. If enough issues are tagged that share a theme we can do a themed meeting. That would be my preference. Unless we get enough issues tagged for themed meeting it'll be catch as can astearns: Quick reminder W3C Website =========== link: https://www.w3.org/blog/2020/04/w3c-website-redesign-user-stories-brand-and-identity/ <fantasai> https://www.w3.org/wiki/2020_website_redesign/users fantasai: W3C is trying to do entire website and they need more input on the user story. A lot of people here are in different roles. Please put requirements into wiki ^ so design team can do a good job fantasai: I'd like to invite anyone to re-organize or re-adjust whatever is needed. That's about it. astearns: Please take a look at the links and see what you can contribute. astearns: If there's anything about W3C website that has been annoying to use please make sure those get mentioned. fantasai: Complaints are it's hard to find things and hard to know what exists. Nice if you can go to the website and find what you're looking for, but don't know that unless know what people are looking for CSS Values ========== Quirky lengths and math expressions ----------------------------------- github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4874 emilio: This is when should SVG and quirks accept numbers and when shouldn't emilio: I think quirks mode shouldn't accept calc but SVG is more debatable. emilio: Haven't checked issue today so don't know if there's new comments there astearns: One comment from Rune where he links to change list for review on Blink dbaron: I think what emilio is asking is the quirks mode rules that you can omit pixels not apply inside of calc TabAtkins: That's what I feel should be happening TabAtkins: Effect of quirks mode is these properties are defined to take number as final value and it's interpreted as pixel. Has no effect on calc because doesn't allow 1 + 3px. If your calc ends up as a number it works out. TabAtkins: That's what some of the SVG properties do explicitly. If we define quirks as same thing it's a nice consistent system emilio: Seems to be Peter said he didn't want it to work. A number inside quirks not to work. I'm ambivalent. florian: Logic is quirks was meant to be limited. This is logical extension, yes, but quirks was meant to be as limited as possible. AmeliaBR: One complication is as we moved to typedOM and exposing the true computed value not just resolved value things could get a lot messier if we need to keep track of numbers instead of lengths emilio: I don't think any engine will struggle. Final number interpreted as a length emilio: I don't know but I suspect fancy calc rules would require keep track but no one impl. You need math there. Calc that resolves to number you can get final at parse. TabAtkins: Not true with the later stuff TabAtkins: Re-reading comments. Looks like you suggest quirks accepts number token as the value. So write a literal number but not any expression. No calc, attr, etc TabAtkins: That's fine with me. Would like consistent with SVG but since they didn't originally accept calc I suspect could change AmeliaBR: SVG presentation attributes where they accept values allowed in regular CSS. Could define presentation attributes are quirky TabAtkins: Or just number token in grammar. Yeah emilio: sgtm. Happy they're consistent astearns: Proposal: In quirks mode properties don't accept calc TabAtkins: In quirks mode properties that need to be quirky will be specified to take a number token and interpreted as pixels AmeliaBR: Spec when fixup happens? How it effect serialization/ computing? TabAtkins: Don't know today emilio: I think all serialize pixels. AmeliaBR: I believe that's true emilio: Almost sure webkit and FF do that astearns: I don't expect the resolution effects serialization TabAtkins: I could. Have to say when converts to length plinss: Should be parse time. Quirks should be as limited as possible and was designed to be phased out. Minimal impact and just at parse time. TabAtkins: Fine with me <fantasai> +1 to plinss <TabAtkins> Confirmed that Blink converts number to px at parse time. astearns: Proposal: In quirks mode properties that are quirky will be able to take a number token which is interpreted as pixels emilio: And so should SVG TabAtkins: Different serialization rules, but otherwise yes <dbaron> and the point is that "can take a number token" doesn't apply any quirks *inside* of calc() AmeliaBR: Not sure how much we need. Attribute value will get attribute. CSS serialization can sync emilio: We return pixels in specified side <TabAtkins> proposed resolution: Properties that accept "quirky lengths" are defined as having `<number-token>` in their grammar, which is converted at parse-time to a px length. SVG follows along for its presentation attributes. astearns: All one thing to resolve on? Or are there 3 bits to resolve separately? emilio: I think...browsers do not agree on quirky SVG so at least 2 resolutions astearns: Proposal: Properties that accept quirky lengths accept number token which is converted at parse to pixels RESOLVED: Properties that accept quirky lengths accept number token which is converted at parse to pixels astearns: Second: This resolution does not apply to any quirks inside of calc <fantasai> +1 emilio: I think that's implied. <fantasai> make it clear astearns: I'd like to specifically resolve to make it clear TabAtkins: Sure RESOLVED: This resolution does not apply to any quirks inside of calc astearns: Browser incompat and presentation attributes following along. Can we resolve? emilio: I've never heard of any compat issues AmeliaBR: Don't expect issue on compat, but I have to open a separate issue on SVG so we can resolve CSS endorces this and we can add details on SVG astearns: Proposal: encourage SVG to follow this approach RESOLVED: Encourage SVG to follow this approach CSS Text 3 ========== Ogham Space Mark needs to disappear at the end of a line -------------------------------------------------------- github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4893 fantasai: Issue is that there is an Ogham space mark. Let me show a pic <fantasai> https://omniglot.com/writing/ogham.htm fantasai: Written on the line. In paragraphs it's on the line. Character called Ogham space mark fantasai: When breaking lines should disappear at end of line. fantasai: Wanted to add a rule you should drop final Ogham space mark when trimming <fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4893#issuecomment-613175286 fantasai: Question how to do that. fantasai: Implication are about what happens when you mix spaces and Ogham space marks fantasai: Not likely to happen so it's what's easiest to implement and we should pick that <dauwhe> this book discusses the Celtic Tree Alphabet, which apparently uses the Ogham script https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/575305/to-speak-for-the-trees-by-diana-beresford-kroeger/ florian: Main alternatives is at end of line you get rid of any mix of regular and Ogham spaces. Or you do in phases. Remove spaces, any Ogham left, you remove those. AmeliaBR: Any other characters we treat as trimmable spaces for line wrapping but aren't classified in collapsible? fantasai: Not that I know of and this is the only one mentioned in the report florian: Tabs have been converted to spaces at that point fantasai: Other visible word spacer marks but they don't disappear at end of line fantasai: There might be others astearns: Any notion which is easiest to implement? AmeliaBR: Any cases where the two algorithms have different effects? fantasai: Different effects. You can see it in the comment linked above florian: I suspect two pass is easier to implement because you let ICU do normal and then a second pass rather than hacking to know about Ogham spaces. But I'm not implementing fantasai: If no one on the call knows, please comment on issue. If not I'll do whatever Koji says fantasai: Spec wording is new and not entirely clear so I'll tighten up a bit so it's clear astearns: Any opinions? astearns: We could resolve to do what koji says and mark at risk? fantasai: Yep. Just say up to editors astearns: Proposal: Let editors choose the behavior and mark this at-risk astearns: Obj? RESOLVED: Let editors choose the behavior and mark this at-risk Publication ----------- astearns: Publication with this change? fantasai: Let's just publish to get an updated draft. Some issues left. Can do new WD astearns: Does this publication need resolution? fantasai: Yes astearns: Proposal: Publish new WD of css-text-3 astearns: Not in CR? fantasai: Not yet. astearns: Should push to CR fantasai: That's the goal. I've triaged. A couple of things need comments. There's the whole removing break transformation which we've drafted. <fantasai> main open issue for css-text-3 is https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/337#issuecomment-612686124 astearns: Objections? RESOLVED: Publish new WD of css-text-3 CSS 2 Bikeshed ============== github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2220#issuecomment-599873522 astearns: Sam is convinced the bikeshed can be done. Here's the link^ astearns: Please take a look and weigh in. Sam thinks it can be done so cool if they can do it. CSS Ruby ======== Size and position of empty ruby level containers ------------------------------------------------ github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4631 florian: Spec doesn't say how to size if the containers are empty. Size to 0 is bad. florian: If they're empty want to be sizes as if contain empty ruby base or ruby annotation florian: Makes sense astearns: Opinions? astearns: Can you summarize? florian: If a ruby base container or ruby annotation container is empty should be sized as if contain an empty ruby base or ruby annotation florian: Empty thing container should be sized as if has empty of that thing. AmeliaBR: If both base and annotation are empty we still want overall container to have vertical space? florian: If you have ruby on an empty base you don't want ruby on base of whole thing just in the ruby thing. You want ruby to take the vertical space. If base container takes a base you pretend it's empty and there AmeliaBR: Like a strut that preserves line height for inline base and annotation? florian: Yes florian: To remind people there's a ruby box that contains a ruby base container that contains a ruby base and a ruby annotation container that contains a ruby annotation. When containers are empty they should not collapse to 0 astearns: Both empty containers and don't collapse so it's an empty space? florian: Yes but width of 0 astearns: Proposal: empty ruby containers are sizes as if they have empty things in them nigel: Point on not observable. fantasai: It is observable if it's only content of line. Will determine height of line nigel: In inline direction...if you have ruby text that takes more inline space than ruby base if can spill out. Does an empty ruby base container effect flow of adjacent ruby text? fantasai: You want to make sure things are paired correctly. Height of annotation and base are contained so stack at correct level. Don't want annotation to collapse to base astearns: Purpose was to see if we should scope to if one of a pair is empty it's sized as if empty but if both are empty they collapse fantasai: I don't think there's any precedence to do that. Inline elements don't collapse to 0 when empty, they have height. Should be consistent astearns: nigel you okay with the side effects? nigel: I was more concerned about width. florian: I think this is about overhang? nigel: Yeah florian: 2 modes. One where you don't and one where UA does whatever it wants. Given it's not spec this doesn't interfere. nigel: I could imagine that and empty thing with size 0 has position inline and that could overhang and effect adjacent things fantasai: I think that's fine. The empty thing holds its place. Should be expected. If you don't want it to hold it's place it shouldn't be there nigel: Feature. fair enough :) fantasai: I think it's an edge case. I don't think there's anything to worry about in terms of use cases astearns: Good enough nigel? nigel: yeah astearns: Proposal: Empty ruby containers are sized as if they have empty things in them RESOLVED: Empty ruby containers are sized as if they have empty things in them Be more specific about the box model of base/annotation container boxes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4937 florian: A little bit of imprecision about sizing and stacking on ruby annotation and base containers. Both are positioned and sized to contain all its boxes florian: Ruby annotation contains margin boxes, but what contains them? Should state. Then when we say they stack is that the margin boxes or content boxes? florian: Later in the spec in 3.2 we say these boxes when styled UA not required to support margins and paddings and border which make them observable. florian: I believe what we're trying to do is margin, border, and paddings are not taken into account for layout. Might be for paint but for layout ignored and we stack content boxes florian: Related in stacking direction we're ignoring so are they also ignored in inline? They're not layout effecting visual stylable boxes florian: afaict FF almost does that. On margin, border, and padding on both axis on annotation and base containers FF ignores all except inline margins on base. Discussed with Xidorn and he's okay with ignoring in all direction. Making them abstract and not things that effect margins, borders, and padding florian: Is that okay and should spec be clarified? stantonm: Confused. I thought desire to use margin to shift position of ruby? florian: Can on ruby annotation, but not on ruby annotation container stantonm: Okay stantonm: Fine to me astearns: Other comments? nigel: Question on PR. nigel: The phrase "contains exactly" that's common language but a bit confused florian: I meant as in spec exactly. Maybe should fix that as well. nigel: It is not linked as a defined term florian: Open a separate issue to improve phrasing? nigel: Will do <nigel> -> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4950 "contain exactly" should be a defined term astearns: Proposal? florian: The box that contains exactly the annotation box is the content box. Boxes that stack are content boxes. Margins, border, and padding on ruby box and annotation containers does not effect layout florian: Ruby annotation containers and ruby base containers not ruby box fantasai: It makes sense to say margins, border, and padding do not apply to boxes. Shouldn't say they apply and don't have layout effect florian: There's a part of the spec that says for painting browsers may or may not support. If want to shut down entirely that's better fantasai: Better because seems more consistent. If you can see them why not layout effect? florian: Trying to scope for time but makes sense fantasai: Margins, borders and padding do not apply to ruby base or ruby annotation containers astearns: And the stacking content? florian: If this is true it doesn't matter astearns: Proposal: Margins, borders and padding do not apply to ruby base containers or ruby annotation containers dbaron: Run it by xidorn? Set of people that know this is small. Maybe koji florian: The first resolution was okayed by xidorn. Second part matches current FF dbaron: Okay with it than astearns: We can come back if there's a problem dbaron: Sounds good RESOLVED: Margins, borders and padding do not apply to ruby base or ruby annotation containers fantasai: Another reason not to apply is people start to expect effects and this lets us make adjustments in the future, as they're less likely to have been used and thus cause compat restrictions CSS Color & CSS Color Adjust ============================ We should add sufficient system colors to fully implement the HTML UA stylesheet --------------------------------------------------------------------- github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4924#issuecomment-610662062 TabAtkins: Issue raised against HTML that UA stylesheet does not respond to dark mode. What we specify in CSS does this partially but it means that things like input colors don't switch TabAtkins: Results in bad design where inputs don't switch TabAtkins: In issue discussion brought up these colors are specified as literal colors and how should they be adapted TabAtkins: Most straight forward is only use system colors. TabAtkins: A few spots don't directly map to system colors. Argument if you can't write UA stylesheet in system colors they're not rich enough for web pages TabAtkins: With this goal there's 3 missing colors TabAtkins: The mark element needs text and background color to distinguish from surrounding text. Right now it's yellow with black text. TabAtkins: Adding mark and marktext color TabAtkins: Border of buttons and button-like things. It's a gray between foreground and background. Could get around with 3d color things, but feel awkward and weird. Good to have a color to offset from background. Button border color lets us hit that TabAtkins: Every other literal color use is well handled. Add these 3 colors and UA stylesheet becomes color scheme friendly <dbaron> I think the existing system color set has two complete sets of values for button border colors TabAtkins: Proposal is add these and then we can proceed with HTML issue. Better names welcome AmeliaBR: Field as in text inputs also tend to have gray border in UA stylesheets. It's not explicitly set out in HTML as a color. Left to match OS conventions. Might be another thing to add, field border. If field and button are same perhaps can collapse TabAtkins: That's not expressed in stylesheet AmeliaBR: Neither is button border. It's in prose that must look like button. TabAtkins: Right <astearns> we're talking about this list? https://drafts.csswg.org/css-color-4/#typedef-system-color <astearns> ah, and also this list: https://drafts.csswg.org/css-color-4/#deprecated-system-colors dbaron: Button thing. Is your assumption about how this color is used within inset or outset? AmeliaBR: Yes. Right now system colors from css 2 have border-highlight and border-shadow but really impl as single color plus inset border style which modifies dbaron: Problem with inset and outset is they have an algorithm which does not match system for button look. You won't be able to match TabAtkins: I think I'm still fine with spec having escape hatch of similar to match OS. But a well defined color that does the job is reasonable. Suggests you shouldn't have blinding bright buttons in a dark mode astearns: Do we have consensus on adding border color? Or just resolve on mark and marktext? TabAtkins: Not sure if dbaron is objecting or commenting dbaron: Just commenting. If you're still okay I'm okay astearns: Is border color for both buttons and fields? TabAtkins: Definitely similar in HTML. For purpose of if you're using system colors to do your own stuff using same color is fine so I'd use one for both cases astearns: Call it button color or different name? astearns: button border AmeliaBR: Resolve on button border and as people impl if they need different color for field they can say fantasai: Why not using the button highlight, button shadow etc on the button? <dbaron> I'd note that the ButtonHighlight and ButtonShadow colors provide a one-color-on-a-side 3-D button effect, and the existing ThreeDDarkShadow, ThreeDHighlight, ThreeDLightShadow, ThreeDShadow colors provide a two-color-on-a-side 3-D button effect. AmeliaBR: They fall apart with stylesheet that's not creating 3d. Which do you use. We don't want to preserve those. fantasai: Wouldn't all resolve to same color? TabAtkins: They're not implied to resolve to same. Implied to do inset 3d-ish dbaron: I think both sets of colors came from windows 95 system colors. dbaron: There was older set of windows where buttons had a single border with a color in the middle color on highlight side color on shadow. Newer went with two colors on each side and had a separate set of names. dbaron: button-something were the old one color on a side. 5 color set that was 3d on newer windows and 3 of the 5 colors were the same thing. astearns: Happy to have border color without that baggage. astearns: Proposal: Add mark, marktext, and button border colors to system colors astearns: Objections? fantasai: Happy to add mark and marktext. Not clear on button. Are we using button border in UA stylesheet or other stuff? TabAtkins: UA stylesheet would say use button border for input and buttons or match OS with similar intent. Neither 3 nor 5 color set matches OS conventions today. None of the browsers will do it. But having something reasonable if doing a generic system can be done with this one color florian: Just because current design is flat or also true if we went back to the days of glowing candy? AmeliaBR: True if we go back to browser that have ability to do lighter and darker accents using border-style astearns: fantasai do you object to button border? fantasai: Not objecting, concern about re-using it for hr and input astearns: Objections? RESOLVED: Add mark, marktext, and buttonborder colors to system colors astearns: Thanks everybody
Received on Wednesday, 15 April 2020 23:05:56 UTC