- From: Dael Jackson <daelcss@gmail.com>
- Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 15:21:56 -0400
- To: www-style@w3.org
========================================= These are the official CSSWG minutes. Unless you're correcting the minutes, Please respond by starting a new thread with an appropriate subject line. ========================================= CSS Grid -------- - RESOLVED: Align grid layout static position as content box rather than padding (Issue #3020) Logical Properties ------------------ - RESOLVED: Drop section 5, backgrounds and borders, from logical properties. (Issue #3028) - RESOLVED: Accept proposal [Have values that affect alignment compute in containing block. Values that affect alignment of content of a box of an element are computed in writing mode of element itself]. (Issue #3013) - RESOLVED: The flow relative keyword values compute to themselves, not to physical equivalents. (Issue #2821) - RESOLVED: Publish a new WD of logical properties. CSS Containment --------------- - RESOLVED: Layout containment censors baselines and size containment does not (Issue #2995) Selectors 3 ----------- - RESOLVED: Publish Selectors 3 as PR Fragmentation ------------- - RESOLVED: Accept the changeset: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/commit/23d5a4c7b28f9767f7f7a621a7b895d4b858bbca [Change from an allow list to a disallow list for break-inside] (Issue #1904) - RESOLVED: Specify 0 size elements are positioned as early as possible in the fragmentation flow (Issue #1529) CSS Text Decor -------------- - The people on the call leaned toward browsers defaulting to on by default for text-decoration-skip-ink (Issue #2818), however some individuals that had previously been against on by default weren't available for the call so discussion will continue on Github and this can be discussed on the next APAC timed call (5 Sept.) CSS Overflow ------------ - RESOLVED: Rename overflow to block-ellipsis. Rename auto to none. Rename ellipsis behavior to auto. (Issue #2561) CSS Fonts --------- - RESOLVED: No change to spec, leave piece of text out (Issue #2430) ===== FULL MINUTES BELOW ======= Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2018Aug/0021.html Present: Rachel Andrew Rossen Atanassov Tab Atkins Dave Baron Garrett Berg Tantek Çelik Dave Cramer Alex Critchfield Benjamin De Cock Elika Etemad Tony Graham Dael Jackson Brad Kemper Chris Lilley Peter Linss Myles Maxfield Anton Prowse Melanie Richards Jen Simmons Alan Stearns Lea Verou Eric Willigers Jeff Xu Regrets: Chris Harrelson Florian Rivoal Sean Voisen CSS Grid ======== Static position should use content-box, not padding-box ------------------------------------------------------- github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/3020 Rossen: TabAtkins and fantasai noticed this while reviewing Grid and they asked if we should s tick to this or align to everything else. Opinions? Rossen: TabAtkins is calling in fantasai: I imagine he's in favor since we submitted this together. <TabAtkins> ^_^ <dbaron> makes sense to me Rossen: We can resolve to align grid layout static position as content box rather then padding. Objections? RESOLVED: Align grid layout static position as content box rather than padding Logical Properties ================== Drop / defer border/background logical transforms ------------------------------------------------- github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/3028 fantasai: This is to drop or defer border and background section. There's a bunch of issues against it which we can handle but these were put in and sketched out on how to handle it. Parts critical for implementing writing modes are not this. fantasai: We propose to defer this section so we can stabilize the rest fantasai: And address these in L2 if we think approach is good <fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-logical/#background-and-borders fantasai: Dropping all of section 5^ Rossen: In favor, but want to hear if others have opinions. <dbaron> sounds good to me <bradk> +1 Rossen: Objections to dropping section 5 from logical properties? RESOLVED: Drop section 5, backgrounds and borders, from logical properties Should the mapping for logical values depend on the element or containing block? -------------------------------------------------------------- github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/3013 fantasai: Question was about should the mapping for logical values depend on element or containing block. Not about logical properties, but values like float: inline-start or text-align: start fantasai: First thing is currently the spec...it was stated values compute to themselves. That's first question. Second is do you map against containing block or element. fantasai: Supposed to depend on kind of element. text:align-start needs to map against element. For alignment we use containing block so makes sense to do same for float because you don't want element to move based on content, but rather context fantasai: Proposed is no change to spec but clarify the values map to themselves. fantasai: I copied that in. Does anyone else have comment? Rossen: Question. There are...all properties in box model, are they defined to resolve against own writing mode? fantasai: Yes own. It was sometimes correct and because you have to do computation of writing mode with cascade it's much easier computation. fantasai: It's unfortunate that's the case because there's a lot of cases to use containing block writing mode for something like margins but we did element's own writing mode for simplicity. fantasai: Don't have same problem for values as they resolve at layout time fantasai: We should have done issue #2821 first as it talks about computed Rossen: Other opinions? Rossen: I asked about box model properties because they are used for aligning box and sometimes used to align content inside. Align-self and content align properties and values are very similar in layout impact so one doing self and the other containing block is weird. fantasai: align-self:start you use containing block, align-self:self-start you use your own writing mode fantasai: text-align:start your children is what's being aligned. Rossen: Get it. Not making case against it. In same virtue you can say position left and right can be used to align-self and padding start and end can align content box. From that PoV they are similar. Rossen: For box model all properties and values compute to writing mode of element itself Rossen: There is discontinuity here. Rossen: Can live with it. Rossen: Other opinions or resolve on proposal to have values that affect alignment compute in containing block. Values that affect alignment of content of a box of an element are computed in writing mode of element itself fantasai: That's what's spec in grid, flexbox, and alignment <bradk> +1 RESOLVED: Accept proposal flow-relative values should say what their computed values are -------------------------------------------------------------- github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2821 fantasai: This is that the values we spoke about compute to self, not left or right. fantasai: This is necessary for text-align property so for consistency we should do that for all properties and if we don't do that CSSOM physical coordinates won't align dbaron: Flip side is that it means anybody looking at computed values to act on them has to do something more complicated. If a web page looks at computed value they need to consider 2x possibilities. They might not and therefore have bugs fantasai: Yeah but you have to do for inherited properties why treat non-inherited differently? fantasai: You have to do that on inherited. dbaron: Not as strong a case for not inherited ones dbaron: and I think there are more of them, or maybe not fantasai: Consistency and so author can work in logical coordinates if they want to. Make these computed values be what they are and if browser needs to worry it should add convenience to its code before reporting to the user dbaron: What about the CSSOM Rossen: I think giving them all the values and having them make the choice what to use would be better then the result of calc that will mask what value ended up computed and trying to piece that back to the value's origin. Especially for inherited. Rossen: I agree with dbaron it will require a bit more handling on user side but probably not that much. Rossen: We can always simplify later. dbaron: Okay Rossen: Other opinions or try to resolve? fantasai: Also necessary if keeping previous resolution Rossen: Yes, but we could revert. Rossen: Objections to CSSOM exposes both logical and physical values and the resulting values are that of the cascade? Rossen: Is that the summary? fantasai: What?...no. Resolution is that the flow relative keyword values compute to themselves, not to physical equivalents Rossen: Objections to this? RESOLVED: The flow relative keyword values compute to themselves, not to physical equivalents Publication ----------- Rossen: This was last logical issue fantasai: There's 2 more, but that's what we wanted to resolve before publishing fantasai: Other 2 significant issues are marked in draft. #3030 and #3029. I think those need more time to discuss and publishing a draft with them marked as such is good way to go forward Rossen: Agree. Objections to publishing a new CR for Logical properties? fantasai: We're on WD. RESOLVED: Publish a new WD of logical properties Rossen: We'll try for CR soon CSS Containment =============== containment vs baseline alignment --------------------------------- github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2995 Rossen: TabAtkins can you do without florian? Or do we punt? TabAtkins: We concluded and wanted to see if there are objections. TabAtkins: Spec wasn't clear what effect containments have on baseline. florian convinced me. Layout containment should censor the baseline because it acts like there's nothing going on inside TabAtkins: Don't have to do layout on contents to layout parent. Baseline requires you to know what's inside TabAtkins: Size containment does not censor. Baseline doesn't affect that size in any way. Sizing works fine and you can baseline align TabAtkins: Only potential weird is an overflow:visible element it can shrink to 0 but still have a baseline. That can happen today, though. TabAtkins: Conclusion: layout containment censors baselines and size containment no change. Other containments don't matter here. TabAtkins: Sound good? Rossen: So this proposal only changes layout containment? TabAtkins: Yes. TabAtkins: Turns out in Chrome we don't pay attention to size but do for layout. We should be able to change. Per spec this only changes layout containment. Rossen: Okay. Rest is clarification Rossen: Reasonable. Seems florian agrees. Other comments? <fantasai> +1 <fantasai> I think this is the correct resolution Rossen: Objections to layout containment censors baselines and size containment does not RESOLVED: Layout containment censors baselines and size containment does not Selectors 3 =========== Selectors PR ------------ chris: Selectors 3 was...we produced new CR and we have 1 test of the 1 errata. CR was just mandatory for patent policy. That time has passed and there's no open exclusion. So can resolve for PR. chris: I see gsnedders asked about test suite. He's got a pull request about build system not working for WPT. I don't see relevance. This CR is one errata and making it normative. I don't see this holds up PR and then REC. Selectors 4 is current spec. Rossen: Is gsnedders on? Rossen: I didn't see regrets from him. [seems like no] chris: Do we move forward? Rossen: I'm in favor. Want to hear from group. fantasai: Makes sense <astearns> +1 to PR from me <tantek> +1 Rossen: Objections to publish Selectors 3 as PR? RESOLVED: Publish Selectors 3 as PR Rossen: chris do you need help? chris: Fine. Done transition request except for resolution. <chris> transition request here https://github.com/w3c/transitions/issues/83 Fragmentation ============= Define behavior for replaced elements ------------------------------------- github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1904 Rossen: Way replaced elements affected by break-inside properties Rossen: Change we made with fantasai to go from a white list to a black list of elements Rossen: Currently break-inside is spec that it applies to elements in normal flow that establish FC or are [list from changeset] <fantasai> Changeset is https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/commit/23d5a4c7b28f9767f7f7a621a7b895d4b858bbca Rossen: Currently excludes flexbox, grid, etc. Changed that to be a blacklist Rossen: Proposal is break-inside applies to all elements except [list from issue] Rossen: While we did this we noticed break-before and break-after weren't applied to grid and flex so we fixed that too Rossen: That's the summary. Want to hear from WG if we missed anything or if we can resolve. plinss: Can we stop using term black list and white list? <TabAtkins> +1, blocklist and allowlist Rossen: disallow list and allow list * dauwhe plinss: +1 Rossen: Objections to accept the change: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/commit/23d5a4c7b28f9767f7f7a621a7b895d4b858bbca <bradk> Abspos includes fixed? Rossen: Yes bradk it includes fixed <bradk> Ok RESOLVED: Accept the changeset: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/commit/23d5a4c7b28f9767f7f7a621a7b895d4b858bbca Empty fragment at fragmentainer boundary ---------------------------------------- github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1529 fantasai: About an empty fragment at a fragmentainer boundary. If you have a 0 height block or 0 width inline etc and the previous item that if they filled the whole line does the 0 size element stay on the page? fantasai: Specs don't say anything now about where required to break so UA can be intelligent. fantasai: For 0 size might make sense to spec explicitly fantasai: Question is do we want to spec that for fragmentation in general or just for flexbox? fantasai: flexbox is only place we define that precisely right now. <fantasai> because flexbox requires consistency more than quality-of-implementation, so its breaking rules are defined Rossen: I believe we discussed in the past. Don't remember if resolved. Rossen: As far as I recall reason is the empty elements are exhausted opportunistically as much as possible. If there are empty boxes at the end of fragment we assume they fit. Done so you can reduce subsequent fragments. Rossen: That makes sense. Rossen: Other side is such elements or boxes are used for positioning or to create containing blocks or abspos items that go in and out for UI Rossen: For those cases harder to argue it's better that such items are consumed asap or pushed. Again, counter is there are avoid break-inside and break-after properties where you can use such and control correctly Rossen: In both cases makes sense to position and consume empty boxes as early as possible on fragmentation where they are encountered rather then pushing Rossen: That's how I remember previous Rossen: Curious if there are other arguments or if we can resolve on that and spec it so we don't forget again. Rossen: Objections to Spec 0 size elements are positioned as early as possible in the fragmentation flow? <bradk> +1 RESOLVED: Specify 0 size elements are positioned as early as possible in the fragmentation flow. Publication ----------- fantasai: Need to do DoC first fantasai: Look next week? Rossen: Fine. CSS Text Decor ============== Consider adding a third value (skip?) for text-decoration-skip-ink ------------------------------------------------------------------ github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2818 Rossen: astearns you added this from the F2F. I wanted to hear from Emilio or myles or anyone involved myles: This is asking for a distinction between off/on/do what platform does. For us on and do platform is the same. Proposal asks for explicit on. I wanted to know what other vendors thought about skipping on by default fantasai: I don't think it's by default. Request is a value, doesn't mean we change initial. Initial is auto. Rossen: Do we need auto? fantasai: Yes. Wanted to allow UA to do what it felt like. myles: Cool if all browsers decided default was do skipping so we could have 2. Rossen: Our position is we just finished re-writing inline layout. ink-skipping was on my shortlist, but that shortlist wasn't short so we didn't get to it. As a targeted behavior we'd want on by default once we have it. Just like we enable kerning by default. Doable, not super concerning for performance. myles: Sounds like you're okay with 2 values Rossen: Yes myles: We are also happy with 2 Rossen: Having said that there's no way to force it. If platform supports but if it decides on that device it disables you can't force it. myles: When you produce a product that can have that behavior we can re-open? Rossen: Fine. Rossen: Is Emilio on? dbaron: I don't think xidorn wanted it on for all myles: Do you remember reasons? dbaron: I think some was related to what he saw as default on platform. Maybe windows primarily. dbaron: Don't remember that well. Underlying was xidorn wasn't comfortable with on by default for all. myles: Maybe let this go into issue and ask him to comment in issue? fantasai: Yeah. Can also take up on Sept 5 call. myles: Sounds good Rossen: Sounds reasonable. Rossen: Let's stop here and move on. CSS Overflow ============ 'overflow-block' and 'block-overflow' are too similar ----------------------------------------------------- github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2561 Rossen: florian is not here. Dunno if heycam or rachelandrew are here fantasai: I'm in favor of accepting proposal in last comment fwiw <fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2561#issuecomment-413144634 Rossen: Other opinions? rachelandrew: I'd agree Rossen: Rename overflow to block-ellipsis. Rename auto to none. Rename ellipsis behavior to auto <astearns> +1 to block-ellipsis rachelandrew: Yes I agree [missed] rachelandrew: I agree and as I mentioned in comments I wrote docs for MDN and this seemed sensible way to explain it. Rossen: We can try and resolve. Objections to rename overflow to block-ellipsis. Rename auto to none. Rename ellipsis behavior to auto RESOLVED: Rename overflow to block-ellipsis. Rename auto to none. Rename ellipsis behavior to auto. CSS Fonts ========= font-size: 'medium' value is the user's preferred font size ----------------------------------------------------------- github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2430 chris: It seems...I thought this affected implementations and rereading it looks like this should be the user's default. Apparently it already does impact medium. It's restoring language that was in the spec and was removed. Thought it was a change, but I no longer object. We can put the language back. I'd like to hear if other vendors see a problem. Otherwise trivial change. myles: One thought. Proposal has changed through issue. In Apr 25 post from Amelia it says [reads https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2430#issuecomment-384406289 ]. I think that's more specific than original text. Helps me understand what text trying to say. If we make a change, should be one Amelia proposed. Rossen: You're okay with changes? myles: Yeah. dbaron: One thing we've found in past is if you change the meaning of medium and default font size meaning many web pages break. Turns out to not be a good thing rather then zooming. Maybe that's changing as web changes myles: One detail, we don't support changing meaning of medium, but do support bumping every font size by a percentage. No way to affect keywords without affecting font-sizes and that works well chris: I think that was the basis for my original reluctance. We seemed to hope that would work in CSS 1 and 2, but now you can zoom entire page and that seems more robust and what people do. didn't want to restore on basis of it was in CSS2. myles: Question for dbaron. You said if you change definition of medium to other then 16 web pages break, but someone in the issue said chrome and firefox allow changing definition of medium dbaron: We do have a setting and over time it has gotten more hidden, but haven't removed. It's not a great idea to set. <astearns> I have changed that setting and have had pages break <chris> so we shouldn't really encourage changing it, then Rossen: What does that leave for this issue? myles: This is a natural pull between browsers custom a11y that they do without spec changes vs something normative the spec can say about how to improve font sizes. dbaron's comment on how browsers evolved their solution and maybe normative spec text isn't necessary makes sense. Could go either way chris: Could go either as well. Don't want to encourage people to do a bad practice Rossen: Leaning resolve no change? <tantek> I don't think we have enough data to justify a specific change on this <chris> fine with no change here if WG so resolves Rossen: Going to take silence as agree Rossen: Objections to no change to spec, leave piece of text out <tantek> +1 <chris> +1 RESOLVED: No change to spec, leave piece of text out. Rossen: We're at top of hour, one more font issue from fantasai Rossen: Happy to push if can't resolve in a minute. Rossen: Okay, we are done Rossen: We'll chat next week. Bye!
Received on Wednesday, 22 August 2018 19:22:54 UTC