- From: Dael Jackson <daelcss@gmail.com>
- Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 19:36:44 -0500
- To: www-style@w3.org
Update on accepting alternate snap points proposal
--------------------------------------------------
- MaRakow reported that he has been pushing updates to the spec
and would be okay with publishing an updated working draft.
- TabAtkins felt that it was missing too many pieces to publish.
- TabAtkins proposed that the working group should resolve that
the spec will go in the direction of the spec that TabAtkins
and fantasai wrote, however MaRakow wasn't comfortable with
that until he had finished his full review.
- The suggestion to resolve was based on a desire to give
implementers a clear indicator that snap points is going
in the direction of their proposal and to ensure that any
changes MaRakow made were documented.
- MaRakow offered to maintain a DoC or a change list to
ensure that TabAtkins and fantasai can follow the
changes.
- Instead of the resolution TabAtkins proposed, MaRakow
offered to put a note at the top of the spec making it
clear that it will be changing in the direction of the
TabAtkins and fantasai document.
- TabAtkins suggested that other developers with experience in
snap points help MaRakow do review to try and get the spec to
publication by Sydney.
- Rossen also suggested that MaRakow, fantasai, and TabAtkins
get on a call to work through the changes.
- RESOLVED: Add to the top of snap points "This spec is currently
undergoing major changes in line with the resolutions
in
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Dec/0048.html.
During this process it is not safe to assume that the
current form will be representative of what it will
look like in the future. After the work in process is
completed, it will closely resemble this proposal (
link to Tab/Elika's proposal)"
Using polar positioning as a part of absolute positioning
---------------------------------------------------------
- Jihye and BradK reviewed their conversation about if it's
possible to merge the proposed center property and the
polar-origin property.
- fantasai suggested that it may be possible to do everything in
the center property using the already existing alignment
properties.
- BradK will send fantasai a list of emails to review to catch
up on the conversation so that she can reply with more
details on her proposed solution after reviewing the use
cases.
===== FULL MINUTES BELOW ======
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2016Jan/0070.html
Present:
Rossen Atanassov
Tab Atkins
Bert Bos
Tantek Çelik
Dave Cramer
Alex Critchfield
Greg Davis
Elika Etemad
Tony Graham
Jihye Hong
Dael Jackson
Myles Maxfield
Thierry Michel
Michael Miller
Anton Prowse
Matt Rakow
Alan Stearns (IRC Only)
Greg Whitworth
Steve Zilles
Regrets:
David Baron
Daniel Glazman
Chris Lilley
Peter Linss
Edward O'Connor
Florian Rivoal
Lea Verou
Johannes Wilm
Scribe: dael
Rossen: Let's get going.
Rossen: Hello again. Do we have any additional topics to discuss?
Rossen: Okay. We'll have a short call today likely.
Rossen: The first topic is on round display.
jihye: I think bradk isn't here yet.
Rossen: I thought he was on IRC.
Rossen: bradk are you on the call?
[silence]
Update on accepting alternate snap points proposal
--------------------------------------------------
Rossen: MaRakow was actioned to update by today.
MaRakow: I pushed updates to the spec on Monday and Tuesday which
includes the core functionality from TabAtkins and
fantasai which is snap padding, snap area, and snap
alignment and the other sections, such as examples are
updated.
MaRakow: There's more to merge, but it's a spec that holds
together for functionality.
MaRakow: It includes the core items.
MaRakow: I'm happy to push an updated WD. Or I can keep working on
the merge and do a WD later, whichever is preferred.
TabAtkins: It's missing all the details of 1d vs 2d snap positions.
MaRakow: I'll be working on those next.
TabAtkins: It's not usable until we have those.
MaRakow: If you prefer me to get a fuller thing done we can. As is
it's closer and is internally consistent, but if you'd
rather wait we can.
TabAtkins: I don't want to publish a new WD until it's done, but
I'd be happy to have the WG 'yes this is the direction
we're taking' resolution.
Rossen: So MaRakow, when would you be able to get those details
into the spec?
MaRakow: I'll be working on it immediately. I can do an update
next week.
TabAtkins: I'm fine with you taking the time you need. My goal is
to get it communicated to the working group, Microsoft,
that yes this is the thing and accept this is the
direction we're going.
Rossen: When you say this is the thing, you mean the merged spec?
TabAtkins: Yeah. The point was our entire process was hinged on
Microsoft wanting extra time. As long as you're okay
now, we can resolve that this is how we're doing this.
Rossen: Sounds reasonable. MaRakow?
MaRakow: We're on the track for a merged spec. Take a look at the
details in the github for where i did deviations or merge
conflicts. But we're going in the direction.
TabAtkins: So can we resolve as a Working Group?
Rossen: What would the resolution be?
TabAtkins: We are accepting the model from fantasai and I. The
edits are in process to integrate the proposal, but the
model we proposed is what the WG is adopting.
MaRakow: Snapping from element boxes, not coordinate systems?
TabAtkins: You're updating spec to match our proposal.
MaRakow: We'll need to see what the merge looks like, but we're
using element boxes, not coordinate systems.
TabAtkins: I'm not asking for exact wording. The proposal as it
stands is what we're wanting to go with.
TabAtkins: I'm not trying to nail you into weird details.
fantasai: And if there's a change it's something specific that
needs fixing.
MaRakow: I'm not sure I'm ready...
[everyone talks over each other]
MaRakow: I'm not sure I'm ready for that kind of commitment unless
it's more specific.
TabAtkins: We're accepting the proposal fantasai and I wrote with
any changes being bug fixes from the WG not arbitrary
divisions.
MaRakow: Some of the items we talked about that were internal
confusions need to be resolved. They'll be open issues. I
don't think I'll drop without a note, but there's some
items where I need to point out where there's a desire to
control, but problems with the proposal.
TabAtkins: The point is the proposal is what we're doing, not a
modification no one heard of.
TabAtkins: You've had 2 1/2 months to review, are you willing to
say Microsoft will implement the proposal with any
changes the WG will make in the future.
MaRakow: No, it overrides my ability to do a review.
TabAtkins: It doesn't. That's your responsibility as an editor.
We're responsible to the oversight of the WG, but
everyone else approved the proposal at the F2F.
MaRakow: I don't think we had carte blanche approval.
TabAtkins: Correct.
MaRakow: We need greater discussion for a complete acceptance.
fantasai: One of the problems with you going and merging and not
telling us what you changed is we don't know what you
changed and have to go word by word and see if we agree.
We want it to be your responsibility that as you find
things that need changing you bring it to the WG. So we
accept the proposal, anything you don't like becomes and
issue, and we fix it.
fantasai: If you're just going to merge everything in, TabAtkins
and I have to go word by word to find the differences
and decide if they're significant and bring them to the
group. We don't want to spend two days doing it. Since
you're doing it you should point out the differences.
MaRakow: That's the situation you put me in when you introduced
the spec without consulting.
fantasai: We tried.
MaRakow: I was interested in talking to you.
TabAtkins: We synthesized the last two years of feedback that was
un-addressed.
MaRakow: You didn't talk to me about the proposal or give me
change by change. Yes it's a problem. If the issue is
you're not sure what's changed, I'm happy to give you a
change list. I can put in open issues with anything I've
changed. I'm not trying to make it hard for you to review.
fantasai: You're marking what's different? We had in our proposal
the things that were different at first, we talked about
that, and we built it out with feedback and made an
entire DoC. You can't tell me we didn't.
MaRakow: But you're saying I didn't do a similar thing.
fantasai: You did that.
fantasai: We're talking about the changes you're making now.
MaRakow: I'm happy to pull together the change list.
fantasai: If you have that, we're fine.
TabAtkins: I'm not willing to come away from the telecon without a
reasonable variation of we're accepting the proposal
from fantasai and TabAtkins or we are with these changes.
fantasai: We have it.
TabAtkins: No we don't.
fantasai: We have the technical resolutions. The one open item is
the name of the scroll-snap-type property. I can dig up
the resolutions from December.
<fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Dec/0048.html
<fantasai> resolutions ^
TabAtkins: That resolution...the strength of it isn't...other
browsers don't think it's strong. I want a clear,
unambiguous resolution that this is the approach with
bug fixes.
MaRakow: I think in Paris the WG advised you to work with me to
advance something like your proposal. In Japan we didn't
resolve to a new syntax, but a lot of changes I have
incorporated. Since then we've dropped properties from
the old spec and there's the open issue on snap-axis.
We'll continue with the recommendation in Paris as
merging and moving to our spec.
fantasai: TabAtkins, we have the technical resolutions. Mozilla is
moving forward.
TabAtkins: I'm asking for an affirmation from the group that this
is what we're doing. That thing I'm asking for isn't
communicated to other browsers as I understand it.
MaRakow: If we want to formalize what we said in Paris that the WG
wants that direction and wants us to work together on
merging, I think we can do that. The ED is nothing like
the old proposal. Maybe add a note saying this is a work
in progress to look more like your proposal and link to
it we can. I'm willing to say that's the direction, but
I'm not willing to approve it all.
TabAtkins: You're missing axis and short hands.
MaRakow: And a lot of text with descriptions on how it works.
TabAtkins: Which you've had for 2 months. You keep asking for more
time. I need to know I can tell my people to ship this
in an experimental build, the code as we understand it,
and it won't change drastically.
MaRakow: How are you held back?
TabAtkins: We don't want to throw something out there that we're
going to throw away. Firefox and Safari are in the same
place but they wont' even start to work.
TabAtkins: There is currently code that Safari and Firefox have
written that they're not currently planning on changing
because the spec is in flux because you've taken the
time to review the stuff they're happy with.
fantasai: MaRakow was talking about putting up here's where we're
at and here's where we're moving. TabAtkins if we ask
him to do that and have the change list...MaRakow, will
you be able to finish by Sydney?
MaRakow: Most likely not...I also won't be at Sydney
MaRakow: I don't think I'll be able to.
TabAtkins: I understand spec editing isn't your primary job. We
need more responsiveness. Can we add a co-editor?
MaRakow: That will help me review faster or get your changes
checked in faster?
TabAtkins: The time you can put in as an editor isn't enough so
I'd like more help.
MaRakow: The problem is review.
TabAtkins: Which you're time constrained on, I understand. But I
don't like you being the sole gate keeper on time since
you're time constrained.
MaRakow: The problem isn't time, it's reviewing.
TabAtkins: So reviewing will take more than 2 weeks of full time
work?
MaRakow: The process of reviewing isn't something a co-editor can
help with.
TabAtkins: One that you trust can. They can split the work with
them.
MaRakow: I'm reviewing for things that you haven't thought of or
haven't considered. Unless there's another technical
expert that has experience in scrolling.
TabAtkins: We have that. Apple has experience, our implementor
could help.
MaRakow: I'd like to hear from Apple and Firefox if there's
confusion on the status.
TabAtkins: Dino mentioned the confusion in December.
Rossen: Let's say that there are two specs competing for the same
space. There is confusion by that existence. Everyone is
looking to get rid of confusion as fast as we can. There
are constraints.
Rossen: The idea would be a WD approved by Sydney. One way is to
ask MaRakow to drop everything and focus on this. That's
his call if he can. Another would be to add a second
editor or 2 editors who can do this if there's mutual
acceptance. 3rd way is you guys to get on the phone for 4
or 5 hours and get down to the review in real time and get
it done.
Rossen: One of these options, which do you go for?
TabAtkins: fantasai and I are working together all month so we're
available for real time resolution of issues. That's
acceptable on our part.
MaRakow: I'm happy to meet. If you guys can bring Majid (sp?) or
technical help that would be good. If you have an
experimental implementation that would help because I
could see what it means.
TabAtkins: I can try and get Majid and you together.
TabAtkins: In the mean time, I'm not seeing a blocker from doing a
political resolution that modulo any fixes that need to
be made, the proposal as fantasai and I wrote it is
accepted.
MaRakow: It sounds like a strange way of wording it.
TabAtkins: We've done this kind of thing before. Saying we know
there will be tweaks, but this is the direction. It's
not uncommon.
MaRakow: Are there opinions for Apple or Firefox?
fantasai: Mozilla filed the bugs to fix this referencing the
resolutions from December. I'm not sure what extent
someone is working on it.
myles: During the F2F we had one piece of feedback, but were happy
to go in that direction. I can't speak as to what we'll ship.
Rossen: Can we assume you're blocked by the situation?
myles: You can assume we're not currently working on this.
Rossen: So you're not blocked if you're not working on it.
Rossen: So how do we move forward? Everyone wants to get this out
the door. One correction is TabAtkins keeps saying this is
a political move which puts me in a tough spot. I can
affirm there's nothing political here...
TabAtkins: I'm not saying it's political on your part. I would
like a political resolution on that part to make it
clear to everyone in the WG what the direction is.
fantasai: MaRakow you said you can put a clarifying paragraph,
right? Can you type something into IRC and we resolve on
that?
MaRakow: Yeah, let me try something.
[MaRakow types]
Rossen: In the meantime I'm going to urge you guys to get together
on the phone and square the differences. Everyone needs
this.
<MaRakow> Resolve to add a notification at the top of the spec
saying "This spec is currently undergoing major changes.
During this process it is not safe to assume that the
current form will be representative of what it will look
like in the future. After the work in process is
completed, it will more closely resemble this proposal (
link to Tab/Elika's proposal)"
MaRakow: Does that look alright?
Rossen: TabAtkins? fantasai?
TabAtkins: I'm thinking.
TabAtkins: Fine with me unless fantasai objects.
fantasai: I would append...
<fantasai> "modulo any technical changes resolved by the CSSWG"
fantasai: Does that seem reasonable?
TabAtkins: Yes. This makes me happy.
MaRakow: I think the issue I have with that is there is content in
the spec that is clearly wrong and will need changes. By
technical changes to you mean things like the must prose?
fantasai: I mean like changes in expected behavior; parsing to,
scrolling to, whatever.
MaRakow: I'm concerned about things like there's still content in
that spec around axis that are representing open issues
now.
fantasai: I think...let me go see what those issues were.
MaRakow: I think there's still example about things like snap
grouping. I don't want to come to the WG to every little
fix.
TabAtkins: We're not trying to lock you into anything weird. We're
just preventing capricious changes to a stable WD and
any technical changes about the trivial are approved by
the WG.
MaRakow: I'm not comfortable with 'stable WD'.
TabAtkins: You've had so long to review.
MaRakow: I don't want an author shipping the ED without a holdback
or your proposal with a holdback.
fantasai: Neither are because we're not CR.
MaRakow: I don't want something to say please go implement this.
fantasai: When we have a WD that's getting close to CR but isn't
there quite yet but will move soon, we generally lock
down technical changes. Like the last 3 months of Flex
went through the WG.
Rossen: Let's try to move forward. Can we resolve on MaRakow's
wording without fantasai addition?
Rossen: We'll resolve on that and then on the addendum.
TabAtkins: I don't want it without the addendum.
TabAtkins: This isn't a strange request. This should be moving to
stability. We're looking for recognition of that.
MaRakow: I want to move to stability, I think that text implies
that you spec is stable and I don't think it is. There's
too many internal instabilities. As we move forward we
can add phrases about that. I'll send you the change
list, work with you on conference calls. There shouldn't
be surprises.
TabAtkins: Then lets agree in wording that there's no surprises.
MaRakow: I'm not trying to sneak any changes past you.
TabAtkins: And I'm not fearing you will. We just want to know
changes as they change.
MaRakow: I'll send updates to the ML with the change list.
TabAtkins: So it shouldn't be weird to agree to. The wording is
non committal.
MaRakow: Requiring WG approval of changes implies that your spec
is stable.
TabAtkins: We can put 'significant' in there.
<fantasai> "in line with the resolutions in
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Dec/0048.html"
<fantasai> ?
<fantasai> (append)
fantasai: We can append in line with the resolutions in the e-mail.
Rossen: So sounds like MaRakow isn't comfortable with the addendum
and you're not without.
TabAtkins: As it stands MaRakow position is the holding pattern
we're in. We're going something in this direction but
don't know exactly what.
MaRakow: The recent changes show that. I've offered to add
something to the top and send changes to the mailing list.
It sounds like people should think your spec is the final
version.
TabAtkins: Our shipping choice is based on stability of the spec.
Rossen: We're eating too much time.
fantasai: I have a proposal, give me a minute.
MaRakow: What seems odd is you're asking for a resolution that
turns the ED into a CR by requiring strong resolutions on
changes.
<fantasai> This spec is currently undergoing major changes in line
with the resolutions in
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Dec/0048.html.
During this process it is not safe to assume that the
current form will be representative of what it will
look like in the future. After the work in process is
completed, it will closely resemble this proposal (link
to Tab/Elika's proposal)
fantasai: The two changes are inline with the resolutions and in
the bottom I made it will closely resemble this proposal
instead of more closely because the goal is to get
fairly close to that proposal modulo the changes.
MaRakow: I'm okay with this.
fantasai: It makes it clearer where we're going.
MaRakow: I like that text.
fantasai: Can we resolve on this?
Rossen: Does anyone object?
RESOLVED: Add to the top of snap points "This spec is currently
undergoing major changes in line with the resolutions in
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Dec/0048.html.
During this process it is not safe to assume that the
current form will be representative of what it will look
like in the future. After the work in process is
completed, it will closely resemble this proposal (link
to Tab/Elika's proposal)"
Rossen: Please get on the phone and get this done, preferably
before Sydney.
Using polar positioning as a part of absolute positioning
---------------------------------------------------------
jihye: Recently we opted to use polar-positioning in other
positioning schemes. That could bring changes in round
display. When polar-distance is non-auto an element can be
positioned in polar-coordinates.
jihye: Polar-origin and polar-anchor can be used independently
from the polar positioning. The prefix polar- may not be
needed. auto values for polar-origin and polar-angle will
be different when polar-distance is auto or non-auto.
jihye: When it's auto polar-origin a becomes 0:0. When it's
non-auto polar-origin auto becomes center:center.
jihye: In that case polar-origin works like a center property like
bradk suggestion. bradk is that right?
bradk: Pretty close. The polar-origin is very similar to center.
It could be center-x and center-y independently. It's
originating the center point relative to the containing
block. That property, whatever it's called, would be an
initial value of auto and would be triggered if something
is the center. It wouldn't do anything if top right bottom
left weren't auto. So if position: absolute and those four
properties are auto, this property would locate the center.
bradk: There's two parts to these polar properties. You locate the
center and move at an angle. I'm suggesting this property
is the one that centers when you give it non-auto and the
other edge properties are auto.
bradk: From the mailing list conversations we've come a long way
toward agreeing. It's getting down to details like what we
call it and how to combine. I suggested it being two
properties with one short hand.
jihye: I think the change in polar-origin and center you suggested
is almost the same. The difference is anchor points in an
element can be sent by polar-anchor when using polar-
origin, but center can't combine with that.
bradk: It could. polar-anchor is an offset. You're using
polar-origin to position the item in the containing block
and polar-anchor moves it one way or another.
bradk: I think it could be. The naming would be odd, but if center
does what polar-origin is doing you could have something
like polar-anchor to nudge it. We do have margin-left and
margin-top that are already doing that.
bradk: The main thing polar-anchor brings is to use percentage of
itself. Else wise margin can do the same thing.
<jihye> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2016Jan/0044.html
fantasai: I'm not sure clear...the e-mail from the agenda is a
presentation..is there a summary of the discussion?
bradk: It's evolved over several e-mails.
fantasai: An email that's a summary would help.
fantasai: Also, there's a lot of centering that can be done with
alignment that would work with abspos.
bradk: But sometimes you want to start a little off center.
fantasai: And you can with including the offsets.
fantasai: The model we have for using top and left etc. is that
the offsets are using your containing block and you
center in the remaining space.
bradk: I think that's another possibility.
bradk: Some of my use cases were you could position something all
the way to the left and then use vertical centering on it.
bradk: So it would be center of the object lining up with the left
edge.
<fantasai> top: 0 ; bottom : 0; align-self: center;
fantasai: What's easy with the alignment. You would say ^
bradk: And you wouldn't need to know the object width or height?
fantasai: No, it does centering like it should work.
bradk: We should look into it. My main point was to separate the
centering from the angular movement.
fantasai: The centering is in the alignment spec.
bradk: I wasn't sure from the spec what happens when you have more
than one thing aligning. Are they handled independently?
fantasai: An abspos element is positioned independent of siblings.
bradk: I need to look into that more. That's a real possibility
bradk: So if we use that I would go back to what jihye said with
something else being not auto to activate such as polar-
angle.
bradk: So the main point of contention is polar-anchor.
bradk: Which is think is still replicating margin mostly except
margin won't do a percentage of self, just of containing
block.
fantasai: This kind of important. You can't get an anchor of the
top-left or center without being able to reference
itself and those are two reasonable things.
bradk: If that's the case I would rename it. It wouldn't apply
only to polar-movement. It would be useful in general.
bradk: It would be good for any positioned items.
Rossen: We're overtime. Do we want to continue on the mailing list
and resume next week?
bradk: That's fine. Maybe fantasai once you catch up on the thread
say how the alignment would work with the use cases?
fantasai: Send me an e-mail with the e-mails and I'll look into
replying.
bradk: I'll do that.
Rossen: Okay. We don't need a resolution, but if you want to
resume the discussion next week send us an e-mail.
Rossen: Thanks everyone for hanging around for the call.
Received on Thursday, 14 January 2016 00:37:46 UTC