- From: Dael Jackson <daelcss@gmail.com>
- Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 17:20:41 -0400
- To: www-style@w3.org
Agenda and Introductions
------------------------
- This discussion to set the agenda held no technical details.
CSS Cascade
-----------
- RESOLVED: Publish a new WD for CSS Cascade
- Pending any comments, the authors will ask for CR in four weeks.
CSS Fragmentation
-----------------
- RESOLVED: Drop 'any' and 'always' from level 3 fragmentation
- RESOLVED: Drop break-before and -after from multi-col and
reference fragmentation definitions and republish as CR
- Once the above resolution is addressed and feedback on a
remaining issue is received, the authors will ask the group
for CR.
CSS Animations
--------------
- dbaron will review the proposal on keyframe interaction
CSS Text
--------
- Control Character Status Update: the plan is still to have
the change implemented by TPAC, but status of fixes is unknown.
TPAC Japanese Industry Meet-up
------------------------------
- Lots of members of the group were interested in attending a
meet-up with individuals interested in CSS in Japan around the
time of TPAC.
- The options given were have a meeting on the Sunday before TPAC
(which would allow more time, but would exclude some people
that already made travel plans), Monday evening after the
meeting (which would give a limited amount of time, especially
if it's not catered), and Wednesday (which would keep people
out of the plenary session).
- Hiroshi will speak to the community and get back to the group
with their preference.
Number of F2F Meetings Per Year
-------------------------------
- TabAtkins raised the possibility of moving the group to having
two F2F meetings a year plus TPAC.
- The thought was we should wait until TPAC to make that decision.
===== FULL MINUTES BELOW ======
Present:
Rachel Andrew (observer)
Rossen Atanassov (Microsoft)
Tab Atkins (Google)
David Baron (Mozilla)
Brian Birtles (Mozila)
Bert Bos (W3C)
Tantek Çelik (Mozilla)
Dave Cramer (Hachette)
Elika Etemad (Invited Expert)
Jihye Hong
Dael Jackson (Scribe)
Ian Kilpatrick (Google)
Chris Lilley (W3C)
Peter Linss (HP
Edward O'Connor (Apple)
Simon Pieters (Opera)
Matt Rakow (Microsoft)
Florian Rivoal (Invited Expert)
Andrey Rybka (Bloomberg)
Hiroshi Sakakibara
Simon Sapin (Mozilla)
Hyojin Song (LG)
Elliott Sprehn (Google)
Shane Stephens (Google)
Alan Stearns (Adobe)
Lea Verou (Invited Expert)
Sam Weinig
Greg Whitworth (Microsoft)
Johannes Wilm (Antenna House)
Regrets:
John Daggett (Mozilla)
Daniel Glazman (Disruptive Innovations)
Anton Prowse (Invited Expert)
Agenda: https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/paris-2015#agenda
Scribe: dael
Agenda and Introductions
------------------------
[This discussion to set the agenda held no technical details.]
CSS Cascade
-----------
plinss: Whose topic?
TabAtkins: Cascade is ready for CR, but we want to first publish
it as a last WD for review, just so that anything can
be sussed out before we go to CR.
Florian: So you're doing a WD?
fantasai: Yeah, there's no open issues.
TabAtkins: We'll do a WD and ask for CR is a bit. Just to make
sure there's no final objections.
plinss: Anyone opposed?
RESOLVED: Publish a new WD for CSS Cascade
fantasai: Do we want a deadline for comments?
Florian: 4 weeks?
fantasai: Sure.
astearns: Are you asking anyone besides the WG to look?
TabAtkins: I don't think there's any other WG this is of interest
to.
fantasai: HTML?
Florian: This is pretty internal.
tantek: Do you need 4 weeks?
fantasai: We have almost no comments. It would be useful to
collect comments one way or another since we need
to demonstrate wide review to go to CR.
plinss: Anything else on cascade?
CSS Fragmentation
-----------------
fantasai: We have one open issue. The naming of the any and always
values for break-before and break-after
fantasai: It's kind of confusing what either of these things mean.
SteveZ: The last time we talked on the phone I don't remember what
tantek's suggestion was, but I liked it. You had a problem
because you felt it was confusing.
fantasai: Nearest. It implies that it's distance-wise, not
depthwise.
SteveZ: I think that issue is deeper than all and any. Nearest
would still be better. I understand there's confusion, but
it's less.
fantasai: So nearest and farthest?
Florian: I was thinking yesterday. I'm not sure, but
break-before: shallow and break-before: deep
for any and all
TabAtkins: He asked me what I thought it meant and I wasn't paying
attention and I got it right, so it seems reasonable.
fantasai: Other thoughts?
hober: I liked the compound names with force.
fantasai: force-page and force-column
fantasai: We don't use force as a prefix for page or column. We
should have.
dauwhe: It's widely used.
tantek: When did we last talk about this on telecon?
Rossen: A month ago.
tantek: I remember trying to draw similarity to the page break
property.
astearns: It was on 29 July.
<tantek> 2015-07-29 minutes
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jul/0459.html
<tantek> I think I need to see the previous discussion before that
telcon
fantasai: Do you know if the always values are widely used?
dauwhe: We tend to use page-break-before always a lot.
fantasai: Page break property won't change, they're being folded
in but keeping their own syntax.
fantasai: This is for break-before and break-after. I don't think
they're widely used. They're not in browsers.
fantasai: They'd only be in AH and Prince
<fantasai> (Not used on the Web)
dauwhe: I'm looking in Prince right now. They just have column and
page. They don't have pure break-before and break-after
<dauwhe> Prince has page-break-before/after: auto | always | avoid
| left | right
fantasai: Antenna House I think is just the break-before and
break-after....well, we can put this on a board
somewhere and people can think.
<zcorpan> non-zero usage on the web for page-break-before /
page-break-after
https://github.com/search?l=css&q=page-break-before+OR+page-break-after&ref=searchresults&type=Code&;utf8=✓
SteveZ: Basically any solution is better than any and all.
hober: I like shallow and deep. It's confusing, but a bit more
obvious.
dauwhe: It aids in understanding if you have a certain level of
knowledge.
hober: Can we change those now since they're an improvement and
leave a note saying if you have better ideas propose them?
fantasai: So resolve change to shadow and deep unless there's a
better idea?
Bert: I can't say I like it.
SteveZ: Relative to the tree.
Bert: But I don't like to think about the tree. A page is more
like a sequence than the tree.
fantasai: But this is about nested fragment context. If you have
multicol in a region in a paged media, shallow is just
the column, deep is the page.
Bert: How about soon or first-available?
fantasai: We could also drop these values.
Rossen: That was a proposed resolution. We've been stuck on this
for weeks for a name.
tantek: Who was asking for this level?
fantasai: We had an always because someone copied it into a CR spec
(multicol) and then we got an issue of what does it mean.
Rossen: And to have symmetry with always we added any. You can
have context that's agnostic.
tantek: So we can drop both?
fantasai: Probably. We only have one implementation of always.
We'd have to re-publish multi-col.
Rossen: The proposal was to push any to the next level and keep
always for backwards compat.
Florian: But there's no backwards compat. I'm not okay with
punting just one because then you're stuck with the
naming of half the pair.
fantasai: So defer always and any to the next level and also
resolve to re-publish multi-col without the break
property.
SteveZ: Does anyone else besides bert object to renaming to deep
and shallow?
tantek: I don't like them.
Rossen: I'm not a huge fan.
dauwhe: I think the deep and shallow on the next level will be
better with having examples. I think we need drawings.
tantek: Agreed.
tantek: So we're dropping break-before and break-after?
astearns: Just those values.
tantek: Before re-raising the values someone should produce real
world use cases.
<tantek> let's make that the burden for "new information" for
re-raising those values, you must provide real world use
cases with diagrams to justify re-introducing values like
any/all/shallow/deep
fantasai: astearns pointed out there's one issue in the spec about
the breaking rules "does it make sense?" and maybe dauwhe
you can take a look at that?
plinss: So we're removing those values from fragmentation and
removing breaks from multi-col and re-publishing it as CR.
fantasai: Yes, when we publish this as CR.
plinss: So removing the entire breaks section?
Florian: Last time I talked to howcome he wanted to do maintenance
of multi-col.
Rossen: Yes, but we have a resolution from Tuscon to add me as a
co-editor.
Florian: And we have me as level 2.
Florian: So we can ping him and then we can take over if we don't
hear back.
Rossen: Before I was able to do the edit, he read the thread and
made the edit.
Florian: He made some recently for a resolution we made a while
back.
fantasai: If he's active then okay.
RESOLVED: Drop 'any' and 'always' from level 3 fragmentation
RESOLVED: Drop break-before and -after from multi-col and
reference fragmentation definitions and republish as CR
ACTION dauwhe to look at the last issue in fragmentation
<trackbot> Created ACTION-703
Rossen: Is issue 13 resolved?
fantasai: I don't remember, I have to check.
Rossen: I think you replied on ML.
fantasai: Then we just need to update DoC.
fantasai: Once we get dauwhe's feedback and update the DoC we'll
come back for the resolution to go to CR.
CSS Animations keyframe issue
-----------------------------
fantasai: The issue was just can dbaron look at this.
dbaron: What is this?
TabAtkins: Remember some time ago when we were talking on IRC and
everyone had different ideas of how keyframes should be
parsed in different situations. I wrote up an
explanation.
dbaron: I need to read it.
TabAtkins: So revisit tomorrow?
dbaron: I don't know if I'll have time.
TabAtkins: Mozilla is the only one left for a yes/no call.
dbaron: Do you have a URL?
TabAtkins: I'll send.
<TabAtkins> dbaron:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jul/0391.html
Control Character Status Update
-------------------------------
<gregwhitworth> http://logs.csswg.org/irc.w3.org/css/2015-02-08/#e520447
gregwhitworth: We all resolved, basically every UA agreed to
implement control characters blocks C0 and C1 as
hexboxes if they have them.
gregwhitworth: We've done it for C0. For almost every browser they
throw away C1 blocks. We were looking to see if
other browsers were doing this. I wanted to get an
update.
TabAtkins: We haven't done the work but we're fine with going
ahead.
<fantasai> TabAtkins, do you guys have someone assigned to it?
fantasai: We wanted to release this all together.
dbaron: Jonathan Kew would know for us, maybe Jet.
gregwhitworth: I'll follow up with the list on the C1 issue. Maybe
put in the spec that if you have a new browser, you
should throw out C1.
hober: I don't remember, but dino will be here soon.
gregwhitworth: So TPAC it should be in everyone's code and do the
PR to announce it.
Bert: Do you find many control characters in the style sheets?
gregwhitworth: We haven't shipped it out with the flag so we don't
know. There are some sites, I don't know how
they're getting it in there. That's why we need to
do the PR hit, actually for the customers, not the
devs.
plinss: So do we need to come back?
gregwhitworth: I'll talk to dino.
Japanese Industry Meet-up
-------------------------
Florian: We were talking about this yesterday. Since the next F2F
is in Japan and there's lots of companies in Japan
interested in this group, especially writing modes, so it
seemed to make sense to have a meet-up next to the WG
meeting. Maybe on Sunday before TPAC have a room
somewhere.
Florian: We can have the members of the WG that are interested
meet with Japanese business people. Maybe have it mixed
language.
hiroshi: I talked to the site manager today and he can set up a
room for that. Please let me know.
fantasai: Does everyone think this is a good idea?
dauwhe: I like the idea, but I'm concerned a lot of us have made
travel plans. I'm arriving Sunday.
astearns: Would an evening work? Instead of during the day of
Sunday, meet after the TPAC sessions?
hiroshi: Yes.
SteveZ: Monday night doesn't have an event.
fantasai: Is that enough time?
fantasai: It'll be 4 hours at most.
Florian: I'm not sure having it during the meeting is as good.
Florian: Personally I'm good with any random time.
fantasai: Who is interested in attending? Type it in IRC
<astearns> interested
<hober> +0.5
<fantasai> interested
<dauwhe> interested
<Rossen> interested
<Bert> interested
<birtles> interested
<Florian> interested
<plinss> +1
<johanneswilm> possibly
<skk_> interested
<shane> interested
<SteveZ> I would be interested in attending a Japanese Meet-up
<hyojin> interested
<jet> interested
<iank> interested
<SimonSapin> interested
fantasai: Of those interested who has travel plans?
[bert and dauwhe]
fantasai: Can you make a Sunday?
Bert: I arrive Sunday early afternoon.
fantasai: If we did it in the evening after a TPAC meeting day
(which ends ~6pm) and don't include dinner, we can
do 2 hours. If we include dinner we can have ~4 hours.
Is that enough time?
Florian: Are we doing TPAC with the gigantic lunch break?
dauwhe: Didn't we ignore that?
astearns: We did.
Florian: We were offered the options to meet from 9-11 and resume
at 3 with joint sessions.
hober: We only meet for 2 days.
fantasai: So we can do 2 hours, 4 hours if we get catered, and
that can be Monday evening. We can do a large chunk of
Wednesday and miss the plenary. Or we do Sunday and have
a schedule conflict with Bert and dauwhe. I suspect 2
hours is too short.
Florian: And if we do 4 hours we can do the thing were you mingle
with food. So 3 hours of meeting and 1 hour of food.
dbaron: How many people would travel to Sapporo for the 2 hour
meeting?
hiroshi: 20 or 30 people.
fantasai: I think 4 hours is too short if there's lots of questions.
Rossen: How much time would you prefer to have?
hiroshi: I have no idea.
Rossen: Is 2 hours enough?
fantasai: We can do 2 hours, 4 hours, or 6-8 hours
hiroshi: I want to talk with some guys in Japan to get answers.
Florian: I think we shouldn't do it Sunday because the conflicts.
fantasai: It'll depend on what they need.
fantasai: We have several options and we need to know from the
community what they want.
hiroshi: I understand the options and I can talked to the
community and will have answers tomorrow.
hober: Before we move on, dino will be here half the day tomorrow.
plinss: So maybe now is break time?
fantasai: Any other random topics?
Number of F2F Meetings Per Year
-------------------------------
TabAtkins: A few years ago we switched to 3 meetings/year plus
TPAC. I think the WG is moving a bit slower and I was
suggesting 2016 switches to 2 meetings plus TPAC.
fantasai: I think we might want to wait until TPAC to make that
decision because I've been increasing my hours recently.
TabAtkins: Okay, put it in everyone's head to think about it.
tantek: Is the based on metrics or a feeling?
TabAtkins: We're not doing as much work as we were a year or two
ago.
dbaron: We could schedule for May/June and decide if we're
scheduling for September later.
tantek: You could also look at things we can measure.
fantasai: And do we consume all the agenda or are we filling time.
Florian: We've had several with light agendas, but not this one.
Rossen: NY had overflow.
hober: It seems like we've expanded to a 5 day F2F including
Houdini.
TabAtkins: I think we can expand to fill any space.
fantasai: No, there have been meetings were we've been scrounging
for topics.
dauwhe: It could also be an issue of do we need three days, could
do three meetings of three days or four meetings of two
days.
fantasai: I think we should wait until later to figure out.
SteveZ: It may be a good exercise for Thursday afternoon to help
ID things that need work.
<break=15min>
Received on Friday, 4 September 2015 21:21:44 UTC