W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-style@w3.org > September 2014

Re: [css-snappoints] Blink team position on snap points

From: Robert O'Callahan <robert@ocallahan.org>
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 13:32:46 +1200
Message-ID: <CAOp6jLZoBLYmzvKBv0bf9DMuboupWt0+DHqCSxMsXp9cXvgb1w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Rick Byers <rbyers@chromium.org>
Cc: Matt Rakow <marakow@microsoft.com>, "www-style@w3.org" <www-style@w3.org>, "Tab Atkins Jr." <jackalmage@gmail.com>, Adam Barth <abarth@chromium.org>, Nathaniel Duca <nduca@chromium.org>, Timothy Dresser <tdresser@chromium.org>
On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 3:00 AM, Rick Byers <rbyers@chromium.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 6:06 PM, Robert O'Callahan <robert@ocallahan.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 6:35 AM, Rick Byers <rbyers@chromium.org> wrote:
>>
>
> Native div scrolling will ignore beforescroll events that have passed
>>> through an absolutely positioned element
>>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/visuren.html#absolute-positioning>. This
>>> explains why scrolling will chain up only
>>> <http://jsbin.com/larapi/2/edit> to fixed or absolutely positioned
>>> elements, and then chain directly to the document (not impacting any other
>>> ancestor scrollers).
>>>
>>
>> I don't understand this. Is this emulating some Blink-specific
>> Blink-native scrolling behavior? Firefox scrolling doesn't have any
>> behavior like this.
>>
>
> Sorry, I didn't word this clearly.  What I see on Chrome, Safari and
> Firefox (probably more easily observed with http://jsbin.com/larapi/3) is
> if you attempt to scroll a positioned element beyond it's scroll limit, it
> will cause the document to scroll (not any intervening scrollable elements
> in the DOM).  In blink this is because scrolling propagates up via the
> containing block
> <https://code.google.com/p/chromium/codesearch#chromium/src/third_party/WebKit/Source/core/page/EventHandler.cpp&q=EventHandler::scroll&sq=package:chromium&type=cs&l=887>.
> I just tested this on Firefox 32.0 for Ubuntu.
>

Ah right. Yes, I think scrolling should propagate up the containing block
chain. This doesn't imply you go directly from an fixed-pos or abs-pos
element to the document, since a fixed-pos or abs-pos element can have a
containing-block parent that's not the viewport or the canvas.

I don't think how this should behave is specified anywhere, right?  Should
> it be?
>

For beforescroll it probably does have to be specified.


>
> Note that one motivation for this approach (but certainly not our only
>>> one) is Google's material design (
>>> http://www.google.com/design/spec/material-design/introduction.html).
>>> There are a number of scroll-linked effects that will be shipping in mobile
>>> apps which are currently impossible to do properly on the web.
>>>
>>
>> Do you have something that describes what they are?
>>
>
> The most sophisticated effects we're working on are unfortunately not
> shipping yet.  But some of the components and simpler examples are.
> There's the core-scroll-header example from Polymer
> <http://www.polymer-project.org/docs/elements/core-elements.html#core-scroll-header-panel> for
> a start.  Note how the header motion often doesn't stay quite in sync with
> the content motion (since it's positioned in response to async scroll
> events) - to me this ruins the "material" effect they're trying to
> achieve.  Also the spec
> <http://www.google.com/design/spec/patterns/gestures.html#gestures-gestures> briefly
> describes "reveal upon scroll" (which we've been calling "hidey bars" in
> this discussion).  To work at all we've found these have to be synchronized
> perfectly the content scrolling (see the top controls on Chrome Android on
> a phone).  I'll be working on publishing some more sophisticated examples
> soon, and we'll have some shipping products to point to eventually too.
>

I see, thanks.

<soapbox>
> Most importantly to me here is that a number of Google product teams are
> working on interesting but unique material-like effects in their Android
> and iOS apps (not relying on some single gold list of a few permitted
> effects).  Very few of them are even _trying_ to achieve these sorts of
> rich effects on the web anymore. They're not even complaining it's not
> possible because they've largely given up on the web - telling me things
> like "its so much nicer to feel like I'm not fighting the platform anymore
> now that I work exclusively on native mobile apps"!
>
> This of course isn't limited at all to Google products and Google's
> material design (that's just where I personally get the most insight -
> pressure I can't continue to treat without serious urgency).  Just compare
> the native and web versions of Facebook, Twitter, Yelp, etc.  This should
> be terrifying for all of us who believe in the value of an open and
> interoperable web.  This is the main reason many of us on the blink team
> aren't content with a solution along the lines of "scrolling through time
> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Nov/0496.html>"
> (including Apple's proposal from last week
> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Sep/0135.html>).  That
> addresses a big chunk of the currently unsolved use cases today, but it
> continues to play the game of blocking UI innovation on the long browser
> development and consensus process.  If the web is to remain relevant we
> need to give developers the power <http://extensiblewebmanifesto.org> to
> innovate on their own without trying to continue to be the UI gate
> keepers...
> </soapbox>
>

I agree and I'm glad you're tackling this.

I think solutions like animation-timebase are important too, assuming that
developers will hit their performance targets more easily with those than
when using a main-thread-scripting solution.

Rob
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Received on Saturday, 20 September 2014 01:33:16 UTC

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