- From: Dael Jackson <daelcss@gmail.com>
- Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 21:26:08 -0400
- To: www-style@w3.org
New Working Group Members
-------------------------
- Samsung has joined W3C and the Working Group.
- Glazou will become a Samsung representative as co-chair in addition
to two new members.
CSS Style Attributes
--------------------
- The group was reminded that the PR period ends tomorrow.
Syntax Level 3 LC
-----------------
- RESOLVED: Move Syntax Level 3 to Last Call
- RESOLVED: Contact SVG, HTML, XML and internationalization with 6
week comment period.
W3C Process Change
-----------------
- Szilles brought some of the proposed W3C process changes to the
group and they would alter the CR and LC period by merging them
into one step.
- In general the working group responded positively to the changes and
some time will be set aside at the F2F to discuss further.
Status of Jdaggett's Specs
-------------------------
- With jdaggett no longer a part of the WG, the future of the specs he
was contributing to was discussed.
- ChrisL will lead Fonts through the test suite and comments process.
- His contributions to Text and Writing Modes was also discussed with
fantasai asking that people go over the layout and make
comments.
Counter Styles At Risk Features
-------------------------------
- RESOLVED: 'pad' and 'speak-as' are marked at risk
TPAC
----
- Bert stated that details on the location of the Sunday meeting space
would be sent out as soon as they're set.
- Everyone was reminded again to add topics to the Wiki.
New Charter
-----------
- Glazou and Plinss have a list of current documents and are
developing a list of expectations for each of those documents
over the charter period.
- They requested that the group send them comments on what documents
should and shouldn't be included.
- Items that are referenced by HTML5 were also discussed, especially
Selectors 4 and Cascade 3.
Resource Priorities
-------------------
- ACTION: Everyone review Resource Priorities for discussion next
week.
Next Week's Call
----------------
- A few people expressed that they won't be at next week's call as
they'll be traveling to TPAC.
=====FULL MINUTES BELOW======
Present:
Bruno de Oliveira Abinader (IRC Only)
Mihail-Alexandru Balan
David Baron
Renoir Boulanger
Bert Bos
Dave Cramer
Justin Erenkrantz
Elika Etemad
Simon Fraser
Sylvain Galineau
Daniel Glazman
Israel Hilerio
Koji Ishii
Dael Jackson
Brian Kardell
Brad Kemper
Chris Lilley
Peter Linss
Edward O'Connor
Anton Prowse
Simon Sapin
Dirk Schulze
Alan Stearns
Leif Arne Storset
Lea Verou
Steve Zilles
Regrets:
Tab Atkins
Adenilson Cavalcanti
Simon Pieters
Florian Rivoal
ScribeNick: dael
glazou: Let's start
glazou: First thing, any extra items?
glazou: Okay, nothing.
<ChrisL> agenda+ reminder that CSS Style Attrs is in Proposed Rec,
review ends *tomorrow*
New Working Group Members
-------------------------
glazou: You may have noticed Samsung joined the WG
glazou: There's 3 of us that will be representing. W3C will reappoint
me as co-chair on behalf of Samsung.
glazou: However, it may take a few days because TPAC.
CSS Style Attributes
--------------------
glazou: PR for Style Attributes ends tomorrows. We need reps to vote.
glazou: Please remind them to do it today
glazou: Is szilles on call?
glazou: Not yet.
Syntax Level 3 LC
-----------------
glazou: SimonSapin may have been hit by the winter change.
SimonSapin: Sorry.
SimonSapin: Let me find the link
<SimonSapin> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2013OctDec/0134.html
SimonSapin: We had a few remaining issues in syntax
SimonSapin: I think 2 are worth mentioning
SimonSapin: The first that I edited the functioning of the referencing
documents and attributes.
SimonSapin: The spec chooses CSS and refers to style sheets as
required to defined in the syntax.
SimonSapin: Two of those go into their respective spec.
SimonSapin: In particular in cascades it's defined. I don't know if we
can move the definition without going out of CR.
glazou: Since it's adding, probably not.
fantasai: Is it adding or clarifying?
SimonSapin: It's moving the definition, but it's one sentence.
fantasai: It's probably okay as a errata.
<ChrisL> Do you supply suggested text? If so I will check that SVG has
that text.
<SimonSapin> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#environment-encoding-at-import
fantasai: Keep it in syntax and move into cascades
ChrisL: It depends on if it's new.
ChrisL: New is not doable in errata.
SimonSapin: The definition is that the new topic is defined as style
sheets.
SimonSapin: It's not new, just moving
ChrisL: Why do you need to move?
SimonSapin: It was previously defined in reference to HTML, it should
be in CSS.
SimonSapin: We have 3 cases of style sheets being used by something
else. HTML, XTML and CSS
ChrisL: I understand
ChrisL: We don't want something to go from CR to LC
ChrisL: Have there been other changes that would prompt it going to
LC?
dbaron: Can we move it from one thing to another once they're both CR?
SimonSapin: If we can't it can stay for now
* tantek is excited for the process updates
* tantek plans on putting CSS3-UI through it ASAP
* ChrisL is pretty bored by them too
* sgalineau never expected he'd also say he's excited about process
* tantek is tired of the LC-CR-LC dance loop
* sgalineau tantek, yes, there is something to be said for 'last'
meaning 'last'
<tantek> there's no such thing as "last" in standards.
<tantek> except :last :D
* sgalineau in standards the last man standing never dies
ChrisL: I'm trying to avoid the dance between CR and LC
ChrisL: I'd rather leave as-is and fix it later.
ChrisL: It's not changing implementation
ChrisL: It's not making it cleaner or simpler
ChrisL: Would be better to say future version should define and the
definition should be thus.
ChrisL: It's cleaner and everyone will know what it means.
ChrisL: I don't want to see this add 4 weeks.
ChrisL: On the other hand, the others are HTML
ChrisL: Is there specific text we can add over and do we know HTML5 is
adding the correct text?
fantasai: I think we should leave until everything updated and then
change.
SimonSapin: I suspect HTML5 will have correct text
<SimonSapin> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#environment-encoding-html
ChrisL: If you have specific text, mail it to HTML5 WG
<SimonSapin> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#environment-encoding-xml
ChrisL: Once it's in the right place, we can make sure to reference it
to define it.
SimonSapin: Is it just the XTML version that defines style sheets?
ChrisL: Not, it all does.
SimonSapin: Does it have way to include external?
ChrisL: Yes, it does.
SimonSapin: I have text for XTML.
SimonSapin: I'l do HTML as well.
glazou: Ok.
SimonSapin: That's it for this issue.
SimonSapin: Other issue is we had a proposal to generalize !important.
SimonSapin: An idea to use that for custom properties.
SimonSapin: I suggest to defer until we have something that would use
the feature.
SimonSapin: There's consensus to defer on ML
<astearns> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Oct/0677.html
glazou: Other opinions?
glazou: None. Let's defer for time being.
SimonSapin: Then I'd like to ask for LC working draft.
glazou: TabAtkins sent regrets and I think he said +1.
glazou: Sorry, that was for Grid.
SimonSapin: I talked with TabAtkins and he was fine with it.
glazou: Other opinions? I'm in favor
<sgalineau> no objection
<Bert> ditto
<bkardell> +1
glazou: no objections?
RESOLVED: Move Syntax to LC
fantasai: We need a period and which groups to contact
SimonSapin: This is a first time for me, don't know how time works.
* sgalineau rolls the Last Call period dice
glazou: We're under TPAC moratorium I think
fantasai: I think we can publish before TPAC
fantasai: But I'd recommend a longer period.
fantasai: I'd suggest 6 weeks.
fantasai: We need to contact HTML and SVG.
glazou: XML too
glazou: Other suggestions?
fantasai: Should we contact internalization for encoding? I suspect
getting annevk to review is fine.
SimonSapin: I've been talking with him, I think he's fine, but I can
ping him again
krit: I can also take an action to review
glazou: Let's do SVG, HTML, XML and internationalization with 6 weeks
RESOLVED: Contact SVG, HTML, XML and internationalization with 6 week
period.
glazou: Bert, will you handle publishing?
Bert: I can't do tomorrow, but Tuesday
Bert: I can take it
W3C Process Change
-----------------
szilles: I wanted to give heads up that a new draft of chapter 7 has
been sent to chairs at AC for LC comments
szilles: This new draft is in response to issues raised by members of
WGs, including members of CSS.
<glazou> comments on chapter 7 requested before nov-27
<ChrisL> its a good change, I like it
szilles: Main change is get rid of LC and CR, and create a combination
szilles: That has 2 implications:
szilles: There's now an obligation to get wide review prior to the
step.
szilles: There's no particular LC draft, just a series of WD.
szilles: Figuring out a way of document that process still needs to be
done.
szilles: Part of what is to go into status which indicates major
changes in each WD.
szilles: The one for wide review would say we're basically done.
<fantasai> Putting anything into the Status section is almost like not
putting it in at all...
<SimonSapin> +1 fantasai
szilles: 2nd implication is:
szilles: We said the prefixes can be dropped in CR
szilles: That's not a big deal but we need to think of what doing that
in LCish events means
<ChrisL> it sounds like we should drop prefixes when we move to the
new LC-CR-PR stage
szilles: Third question is that we will need to translate started
documents.
szilles: It's not a good thing for what we've put in LC already,
szilles: We need to know how to transition to this new process.
szilles: The main change is going into that last step.
szilles: The intent wasn't to shake things up, it was to make it
possible to do more things in parallel.
szilles: Get testing going on through life of spec.
szilles: With that I can answer questions.
* sgalineau thinks the status section contains much that is not status
at all
* fantasai agrees with sylvain
ChrisL: Sounds like if we're keeping prefixes, we should drop at the
new LC/CR stage.
szilles: That would be my assumption
glazou: Since vendors are moving away from prefixes,
glazou: and using implementation preferences instead,
glazou: Would this be valid in both vendors opinions?
szilles: I think that's independent of either approach.
glazou: But unfortunatly it doesn't always work like that
* SimonSapin is it time to discuss the prefixing policy?
* leaverou thought we weren't keeping prefixes :S
* sgalineau it should be 1-3 lines. The rest could/should be at the
bottom of the doc.
* fantasai sgalineau +1
* leaverou sgalineau++
<ChrisL> KILL ALL THE PREFIXES!!!! get your pitchforks and torches
* leaverou sgalineau: there was a spec redesign effort, fantasai was
on it.
* sgalineau -webkit-pitchfork: auto;
* dbaron doesn't expect people will get the pitchforks and torches
through airport security.
* sgalineau leaverou, ah yes, I forgot about that. MUST MAKE IT
HAPPEN. I guess we have the occasion.
szilles: I'm not on IRC so I can't see comments
[Comments are explained to szilles]
glazou: Other questions or comments?
szilles: I think it would be good to spend time at F2F to see what
we'd do with drafts.
glazou: It's a good F2F topic, but limit to an hour.
szilles: I'd say a half hour.
glazou: Fine.
* ChrisL half an hour, so less than 30 seconds per spec.
glazou: No more comments?
glazou: Thanks Steve
Status of jdaggett's Specs
-------------------------
* sgalineau will miss jdaggett :(
glazou: I'd like ChrisL and Mozilla to talk about his specs
dbaron: I believe fonts is in CR
dbaron: So the next set of work is to get a test suite
dbaron: I think that's...I'd like to try and do work on it at TTWF.
dbaron: It'll have to be somewhat collaborative.
dbaron: I don't think one person making a suite is good.
glazou: Is anyone at Mozilla able to contribute?
dbaron: I'm not in position to make commitments.
krit: Anyone else on CSS Fonts?
fantasai: No
krit: Who would maintain Fonts comments?
ChrisL: This is where I should step in. I'm willing to be test suite
leader and we should maintain disposition of comments and I'm
willing to do that too.
glazou: Thank you ChrisL
glazou: This was Fonts
glazou: What about the others?
dbaron: What are the others?
glazou: Text and Writing Modes, he was contributing a lot
dbaron: I don't believe he was an editor.
dbaron: There were a bunch of long running debates,
dbaron: I'm not sure what the expectation you have is about those
debates.
glazou: Mozilla's input was quite important. Is there anyone else to
contribute to this debate?
dbaron: Not right now
krit: To clarify, contribute on ML?
glazou: Yes
glazou: These debates or any tech issue that could arrise.
ChrisL: Do you think Jonathan Kew Would be a good person?
dbaron: I think for Fonts that's true. Not so sure about Writing Modes
glazou: What is writing modes debates status?
fantasai: We just published a WD
fantasai: We're waiting for Tr issue to be solved, that's all that's
open.
fantasai: The entire layout section needs work.
fantasai: There's only so much progress I can make on my own.
fantasai: My inclination is unless people want to review before LC, we
should put it there unless we solve Tr issue.
glazou: John said he was fine with any solution.
ChrisL: There was a recent email from Koji with a new way of looking
at it.
fantasai: The issue is basically is if fallback is a must, should,
may, or must not.
* ChrisL thinks that covers all possible permutations, yes
fantasai: We need to pick one, the spec currently says "may" which
allows implementors to do either.
glazou: We're not going to discuss this now.
glazou: Let's hope we have enough to handle in a reasonable time
frame.
fantasai: Does anyone here plan to review the layout?
Bert: I'm reviewing it. I want to write it out for box model
Bert: I want to find a way to discuss with you, will you be in China?
fantasai: Yes
Bert: Great, we can discuss. I think what you have is correct, I just
need to clarify what you mean.
fantasai: Will you be busy Thursday/Friday?
bert: No, I don't have fixed appointments.
fantasai: Maybe we and anyone else can go through spec.
glazou: Bert, I remind you Friday is a holiday.
Bert: I'll be working.
glazou: Anything else?
fantasai: So we'll wait until TPAC to deal with Tr.
fantasai: If anyone else wants to go over layout and send comments,
that would be good.
fantasai: We'll hopefully do LC right after TPAC.
Counter Styles At Risk Features
-------------------------------
<glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Oct/0708.html
fantasai: I was suggesting to put pad and speak-as on at risk list,
fantasai: Because pad is low priority and last minute.
fantasai: Speak-as I don't want as risk, but we don't have many
implementors.
ChrisL: I think it's nice to have it at risk.
ChrisL: It would be good to have, but we should mark it and be able to
drop it quietly.
glazou: Any objections?
RESOLVED: pad and speak-as are marked at risk
fantasai: I had TabAtkins start working on the comments. There's one
we'll want to talk about with the WG.
fantasai: It's about how numbers are handled in Hebrew, but I'll wait
for TabAtkins.
fantasai: Basically it's that Hebrew is limited in its range unless we
add thousands-grouping feature, which we may want to
consider.
* ChrisL two new reviews for CSS style attributes arrived during this
call, thanks!
glazou: I did get a real use case. A company wanted to use numbers in
Farsi.
glazou: It's involving Gecko, but it's a real case.
TPAC
----
glazou: Bert, I see you have message about the Sunday room.
Bert: We don't know which room, but there will be one.
Bert: We should know by the end of the week; there will be a projector
and network access.
Bert: That's about all I can say, as soon as I know what room, someone
will send out details.
glazou: Please add item requests to the Wiki
New Charter
-----------
glazou: I discussed new charter with plh.
glazou: Bert has started a few topics.
glazou: I sent out a list of current documents on the Charter.
glazou: Some are old and need to be removed.
glazou: Plh suggests that co-chairs come up with expectations for each
item and submit those to the list.
glazou: It lets us take a minimum of time with chartering and I think
it's a good idea.
glazou: I'd like all WG members to review the list I sent and make all
the comments you want.
glazou: Tell us if you want something added or removed.
glazou: If the doc is a high priority for you and you want it to be
into rec. during next charter, please tell us, it can be
confidential.
glazou: If you don't give input, plinss And I will work without your
thoughts.
fantasai: Where was it sent?
glazou: With the agenda.
<glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Oct/att-0728/doclist.txt
glazou: It's a list of all of our working documents.
glazou: Plh sent me a list of a few docs that are normatively
references from HTML5.
glazou: 4 or 5 are listed as problematic from review by Robin Berjon
glazou: 2 references are made to the old level of Selectors and Image
Values.
glazou: It previously referenced level 3
<bkardell> CSS Foo Module Level N is my favorite
glazou: The others are HTML and CSSOM
glazou: The other ones aren't a problem, I need to discuss with Bert
and Robin to see if it's a high priority.
fantasai: HTML should be referencing Selectors 4 and Cascade 3 for
scoped styles.
glazou: It's going to be a problem because they want to reference.
chrisl: Either the browser implement and we'll move quickly or
browsers don't implement and it'll be removed from HTML5.
fantasai: I think it's reasonable to move selectors 4 to CR in next
6-9 months.
<krit> +1 to fantasai
chrisl: Is there much difference between 3 and 4
fantasai: Yeah, there's other things.
fantasai: A lot if implemented now.
chrisl: So it does seem reasonable to move forward.
dbaron: Mozilla held on selectors because it didn't seem stable, but
I'm not sure.
glazou: Is 6 to 9 months okay for HTML5?
chrisl: I'm not sure. I can find out. It also depends on the proposed
rec. track change
chrisl: However that's better than "we don't know"
glazou: My wish list of high priority mods is the TTA, filtering/
compositing/masking, Grid, Flex, Variables.
glazou: That's what we want, but you can have a different view
glazou: Any other questions?
chrisl: I'd like to see Ruby moving faster, but depends on
implementations.
fantasai: It's drafted, it depends on review.
glazou: I'll try, but please send comments ASAP
glazou: I'll come up with list of future expectations so we can review
during TPAC.
Resource Priorities
-------------------
glazou: Anything else to discuss?
plinss: I have one
plinss: A first working draft of Resource Priorities has a CSS
property, which they didn't discuss with us.
glazou: Do you have a link?
<plinss> http://www.w3.org/TR/resource-priorities/
plinss: There's nothing else we need to review now, but I need to chat
about coordination.
plinss: We should look because I found a few issues
glazou: It's led by Microsoft and Google
ACTION: Everyone review for discussion next week
glazou: We'd like to have opinions so we can discuss at TPAC.
Next Week's Call
----------------
plinss: I'll be traveling next week
krit: Will others be available?
* SimonSapin can join the call next week
* Bert wil be there
* sgalineau will be traveling next week
chrisl: I'll be available
* leaverou will be travelling next Wednesday too
* dauwhe I'll be available
dbaron: I'll be around
glazou: So I'd suggest we still have a call next week
stearns: I just want more feedback on Basic Shapes
stearns: I have fantasai's and krit's opinions, but I'd like to hear
from others.
stearns: I want to hear from other people.
glazou: Okay.
glazou: Anything else?
glazou: Okay, this is it. Thank you everyone. Talk to most of you next
week.
[Meeting Ended]
Received on Thursday, 31 October 2013 01:26:36 UTC