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[CSSWG] Minutes Telecon 2013-05-30

From: fantasai <fantasai.lists@inkedblade.net>
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 17:56:38 -0400
Message-ID: <51A7CB16.8020706@inkedblade.net>
To: "www-style@w3.org" <www-style@w3.org>
   - Reviewed shortname renaming plan with plh
   - RESOLVED: Publish a new WD of css-masking
   - RESOLVED: Minimal expectation is that animations are ignored in
               non-interactive media, but implementations are allowed
               snapshot them somehow instead
   - RESOLVED: 'not', 'only', 'and', 'or' are invalid media types
   - RESOLVED: background images are positioned to the scrollable area for
   - Deferred issue on defining exact color of 3D border styles to L4
   - Wrt repetition in media queries, belongs to set of problems to
     solve with macros.
   - RESOLVED: Allow at-rules inside declaration blocks per
   - Discussed a few other syntax issues; deferred to F2F
   - dbaron requests comments on outline properties:

====== Full minutes below ======

   Glenn Adams
   Rossen Atanassov
   Tab Atkins
   David Baron
   Tantek Çelik
   Elika Etemad
   Simon Fraser
   Sylvain Galineau
   Daniel Glazman
   Rebecca Hauck
   Brad Kemper
   Philippe Le Hégaret
   Alexis Menard
   Edward O'Connor
   Anton Prowse
   Matt Rakow
   Simon Sapin
   Dirk Schulze
   Alan Stearns
   Leif Arne Storset
   Nick Van den Bleeken
   Steve Zilles

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0710.html
Regrets: Bert, jerenkrantz, sylvaing
Scribe: Anton


   glazou: extra items?
   krit: new WD css-masking?
   glazou: ??

   plh: Renaming of css-variables?  What's the story?  Is the expectation
       to rename everything in the draft?
   glazou: it's dash-1 because it's the first level of the module
   glazou: the number doesn't indicate a "level of CSS".  It's the level
           of a spec.
   fantasai: We want to switch from naming using level of CSS, to a system
             using "level of module".
   fantasai: css3-flexbox should have been css1-flexbox
   dbaron: transforms has renamed to CSS Transforms Level 1
   dbaron: just the shortname doesn't match yet
   <dbaron> fonts should be level 3 because there were font properties in
            levels 1 and 2
   <dbaron> transforms being level 3 is a mistake
   fantasai: we decided to move the number to /after/ the module name, to
             avoid readers' confusion about whether it's the level of CSS
             that's indicated or the level of the module
   fantasai: We set up dev.w3.org first, to test it out
   fantasai: probably at some point we'll hand over a rewrite config to
             the webmasters for /TR shortnames
   fantasai: We will shift the dated URLs as we go along.

CSS Masking

   <darktears> Zakim: ??P82 is me
   <krit> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/masking/index.html
   krit: Would like to publish updated WD
   TabAtkins: I'm fine with that.
   fantasai: I'd like issue of "having a shorthand to turn everything off"
             to be noted in the spec, but I'm otherwise fine
   fantasai: in order to turn of masking, you currently need to know all
             three systems of masking.  (The shorthand 'mask' can only be
             used to turn of one set of things.)
   fantasai: I'd like to investigate the idea of having a more general
             simple switch
   fantasai: I'd like to have mask:none turn off all of the masking
             everywhere, so that it's easy to turn off masking no matter
             how many different masking features we add to the spec.
   fantasai: I think that was one of my comments that I sent to the list.
   fantasai: I'd like to have a note about the issue in the spec
   RESOLVED: Publish a new WD of css-masking

Animations and non-interactive media

   <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/thread.html#msg650
   dbaron: Spec doesn't say what should happen to animations when they print
   dbaron: 1) Consensus towards: when printing, pretend the animation
              wasn't there
   dbaron: but there were some concerns about that
   dbaron: 2) Some people wanted an option for "print exactly what I see
              on my screen right now"
   dbaron: and then there was some third options.
   dbaron: I just committed a change to Gecko, for ignoring animations
           when printing

   TabAtkins: I understand the comments about wanting "screen capture",
              but in the general case we should ignore the animations.
              It'll work for most cases.  Might be bad on certain
              badly-designed pages.  Not sure
   TabAtkins: Question on mailing list about paused animations is interesting.
   krit: Cannot sync animations.  Not easy to determine what to print
   TabAtkins: If author can control a global pause, problem goes away
   krit: But there is no global pause
   <Tab and krit discuss>
   * molly reminds folks that play/pause for motion is an issue in WCAG.
           Also, if no printed animations, we need a note for content creators
          to ensure any important information still makes it to the page.
   <tantek> There may are also a11y guidelines/impacts on animations, being
            able to pause, slow or rewind them. There may be some WAI
            guidelines on printing animations - probably worth checking.
   <tantek> Molly beat me to it :)
   krit: Some animations are really hard to time, if you don't have a
         global timing function (Which we currently don't).

   cabanier: it's reasonable that animations that are in not started but
             have fill-mode have their first frame honored
   cabanier: this is for animations that have fill-mode: backwards
   cabanier: should be easy to implement

   glazou: Ignoring the animation makes more sense.  The other options are
           too hard at the moment.
   Rossen: the way we print animated gifs or video, you would actually
           print the current frame or whatever
   Rossen: I'm not saying it's a precedent we have to follow, but there is
           relevant situation there.

   glazou: Could this be controlled from CSS? Eg a property about how
           animations should print
   TabAtkins: User print stylesheet, turn off animations?
   dbaron: If there's a right value for the static case, then authors will
           want to put the value in for UAs which don't support animations
    * fantasai agrees we should use the fallback values

   TabAtkins: Is there an implementation issue with snapshotting the animation
              at "some point close" to the time the button was pressed?
   krit: Can depend on the implementation itself, communication between UI
         and engine
   <cabanier> who wants that?
   glazou: The print button in the chrome, or the print button in the dialog
   TabAtkins: The last one.
   dbaron: We could do that if we did more work, to have printing CSS code
           know how to copy an animation timeline from elsewhere
   TabAtkins: I thought the printing code just snapshotted the page
   um, no.
   TabAtkins: Hmm perhaps this is more complicated than I first thought.

   glazou: Most reasonable option is to ignore anims.  Could we say that
           we /may/ change it in future?
   dbaron: Sounds good to me
   dbaron: we might even say that implementations are allowed to do something
           else if they want to do something more snapshotty
   krit: and future specs can say more about how to do that.
   glazou: So minimal expectation is that animations are allowed to be
           ignored, and implementations are allowed to do better if they
           want and we might spec how to do that in future
   <dbaron> maybe s/do better/snapshot in some way/ ?
   Correction: Minimal expectation is that animations for non-interactive
               media are ignored, but implementations are allowed to not
               ignore them and we might spec how to do that in future
   <cabanier> so a page with animations will print differently in the future?
   fantasai: We don't want to imply that snapshotting is necessarily better.
   TabAtkins: Snapshotting takes more work than ignoring, it wasn't a question
              of what's better or not.
   <Rossen> http://www.paulrhayes.com/experiments/clock/#clock
   TabAtkins: I'd like to print the frame that's there when you print, in
              that example
   glazou: No
   glazou: In print media, the animation might be there, and there might
           not even be a screen to "see" the anim
   RESOLVED: Minimal expectation is that animations for non-interactive
             media are ignored, but implementations are allowed to not
             ignore them and we might spec how to do that in future

MediaQueries: Parsing Media Types

   TOPIC: 'not', 'only' and 'and' as Media types
   <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012May/0794.html
   <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012May/0955.html
   <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0658.html
   SimonSapin: I'm in favour of blacklisting these words as media types
   TabAtkins: I'd prefer to whitelist the types we have, and never let new
              ones be added
   TabAtkins: Media types were a horrible mistake
   TabAtkins: The only type which makes sense these days is print, which
              could have been a media query
   <glazou> +1
   dbaron: The media types capture a set of binary characteristics.
           (paginated? Really small?).  Media queries are better at handling
           such binary characteristics
   TabAtkins: Agree.
   dbaron: We actually agreed on a plan to add such characteristics to
           media queries.  Florian had an action?
   dbaron: I agree with TabAtkins that the plan should be to not add anything
           in the future
   dbaron: But it's a more limited change to just ban the specific few words
   <tantek> agreed. media types were unfortunately dated.

   dbaron: Anyone recall the error handling rules?
   ??: Unknown media types evaluate to false
   dbaron: "screen, projecton" and misspelt projection?  What do we throw away?
   glazou: I think we currently keep screen.
   dbaron: I would like to include 'or' in the discussion of these few words
   <oyvind> "Unknown media types evaluate to false. Effectively, they are
            treated identically to known media types that do not match the
            media type of the device."
   RESOLVED: 'not', 'only', 'and', 'or' are invalid media types

CSS3 Backgrounds

   Topic: background-attachment: local
   <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0516.html
   <fantasai explains her post>
   fantasai: Proposal is to clarify/change the spec to say that the
             background positioning area for scrollable elements with
             background-attachment:local is the area which scrolls
             and not the scroll frame.
   smfr: I just posted to the mailing list
   smfr: Scrollable area is not well defined
   smfr: Eg shadows affecting scrollbars etc
   fantasai: That's equally true for body content, btw so it's not specific
             to this issue
   <fantasai and smfr discuss>
   smfr: What about background-origin
   fantasai: would pretend the scrollable area has a border with the specified
             border size. Best I can come up with.
   <dbaron> I didn't catch fantasai's conclusion there
   <fantasai> 0 0 would position negatively, effectively, by that amount
   smfr disusses background layers and perf and things
   dbaron: <apropos of something just mentioned> Can have multiple bg layers,
           in any order
   fantasai: Why does this affect positioning?  We're not changing the
             attachment behaviour here, just positioning
   smfr: currently bg is not scrolled with content
   fantasai: We're not changing anything about that
   <dbaron> fantasai, we're complaining about the background-attachment:
            local in its entirety
   fantasai: It moves when you scroll, that's the definition
   TabAtkins: We're just discussing an edge case: canvas
   fantasai: feature already exists and is in spec; we're discussion how
             you calculate the image positions

   fantasai: I'll propose wording which takes care of interaction with
             other bg properties
   fantasai: That scrollable area is not defined is a general problem.

   ??: <... status ...>
   fantasai: There are still a handful of open issues in the spec, mostly
             minor, but still need fixing.

   glazou: Are we OK with the proposal?
   smfr: I'm OK with it
   RESOLVED: background images are positioned to the scrollable area for
   <dbaron> "do what http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0516.html says" :-)

   TOPIC: Color of ridge/groove/inset/outset border styles?
   <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0529.html
   glazou: We have no definition of how to do these things!!
   fantasai: Defer to level 4
   glazou: Then please mark it as an issue
   smfr: Ties in with 'lighter' and 'darker' colour functions that we've
         discussed before.
   dbaron: ridge and groove might have web-compat requirement that don't
           match what we'd like to do with lighter and darker
   * glazou proposed lighter and darker back in 98 and everyone at that
            time replied it was impossible to specify :-)
   smfr: I think we changed ridge and groove last year, and we haven't had any feedback
   <dbaron> FWIW, Gecko's implementation of 3-D border colors is

Variables for Media Queries

   Topic: DRYing up Media Queries
   <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0638.html
   glazou: Wide discussion on mailing list about this
   TabAtkins: Boils down to fact that we do want to do something similar
              to the suggestion, but not right now.
   glazou: I'm using Media Queries a lot for responsive design support in
   * smfr would like to know what DRYing is
   <fantasai> Don't Repeat Yourself
   TabAtkins: Something for level 2?
   glazou: OK noted

CSS Syntax

   SimonSapin: Most is editorial
   SimonSapin: Two issues to discuss here
   <SimonSapin> [css-syntax] At-rules mixed in any declaration list?
   <SimonSapin explains the issue>
   glazou: Do we have everything ready in the OM for this proposal?
   TabAtkins: A few of these rule types will need to sprout child rule
              attributes, but that's about it
   SimonSapin: Answer: no we don't
   SimonSapin: Would like to do change in error handling as soon as possible
   <TabAtkins explains why he agrees with that>
   glazou: Do we all agree with SimonSapin's proposal?
   RESOLVED: Accept SimonSapin's proposal
   <dbaron> I'm fine with the proposal -- reasonable to implement -- there's
            an off chance it could break something, and if it does, we'll
            find out.
   SimonSapin: syntax3 already behaves in this way... should be backport
               to CSS21 and CSS Style Attribute
   TabAtkins: yes
   glazou: So this will override CSS21?
   <glazou> we have levels, not versions :-D
   glazou: Let's discuss in upcoming F2F, because I'd like Bert's input

   <SimonSapin> [CSS21][css-syntax] EOF in string and URL tokens
   SimonSapin: Next issue
   <SimonSapin explains the issue>
   glazou: My own parser makes it valid
   SimonSapin: So does syntax3
   dbaron: If a definition of variable terminates at EOF in the middle of
           a string, does the close quote that's implies get included in
           the variable value?
   <TabAtkins and dbaron discuss>
   dbaron: I'm not crazy about this closing thing
   <glazou> var-foo: foo("blah
   glazou: If EOF happens there, is it still valid?
   dbaron: Should it also contain a closing )  ?? Interesting question
   glazou: This is a F2F topic!

   <SimonSapin> glazou, third issue, if we have time:
                [css3-values] Syntax of attribute values for attr()

   TabAtkins: I'll be asking for FPWD of syntax at F2F!  *Please* be prepared!!
   <dbaron> I'm not sure I'm going to be able to review syntax by that deadline.

Outline Properties

   TOPIC: Principles behind the outline properties
   <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013May/0668.html
   dbaron: I don't think this needs meeting time right now, but pls read
           message and respond!
   glazou: This is related to bounding box etc; makes a good F2F topic

Meeting closed.
Received on Thursday, 30 May 2013 21:57:07 UTC

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